On a few of our threads lately, we have seen religion getting discussed and the bible being interpreted in different ways. Use this thread to discuss anything of a religious nature that you need to.
Ever wonder about the Great Flood? According to the bible it took place about 4,000 years ago (c. 2000 B.C.), and covered all the mountains on the face of the earth. That would be to a height of approximately 30,000 feet.
The next time you see the white line of a jet contrail passing far overhead, consider the fact that the distant white line you are staring at is probably about that high up. Now that is a lot of rain to get in 40 days!
Many, if not most, of the stories of the old testament are nothing more than novels, fictional stories using historical events, places, people, written after the fact of a some sort of disaster such as the walls of Jericho falling. An earthquake devastates the city of Jericho then some guy writes a cute story declaring God had a hand in the destruction. The story of the Ark may be similar. After a nasty local flood, some guy writes a bible story, exaggerates a bit (entire world floods) and the next thing you know millions of people blindly accept the story as true, regardless of how silly the science of such a story is.
Modern-day novelists (writers of fictional books) weave their stories around historical events, places and people. Many novels are "life affirming" in one way or another. These books, these stories touch the readers in their hearts and minds, so much more than an Old Testament story about rape of young innocent girls. The only thing the bible has going for it is the hope for a God, the hope for an afterlife, and lest I forget, the threat that if you don't believe, eternal damnation is in your future. Cute.
Just where is heaven, anyway? Thw bible says that is is above the firmamant (a word that biblical scholars refuse to translate). In Sunday School, I was taught that it was up in the sky ("the heavens"). With modern telescopes not finding it, I can only surmise that it must be really, really far away. Like millions of light years. What I want to know is, just exactly where do Christians say that heaven is located? Or can they even answer that without a bunch of mysterious, complex crap?
It doesn't matter where heaven is located. We Christians believe it exists - the Holy Bible describes its existence. Anyone like you guys who claim to have read the Bible know that your faith will deliver you to heaven. You need to stop looking for errors in the Bible and concentrate on the TRUTH that it contains.
What TRUTH would that be? A believer in the "wealth gospel" would think that the more money a person has the more God loves that person? It really doesn't matter how unethical or immoral a person is/was in acquiring wealth, if you have wealth, God favors you! A very convenient TRUTH. Or, if your life is terrible, perhaps a woman living with a cheating, maybe abusive spouse, that her life on Earth is Hell but, if she believes, she'll find respite in the afterlife? Another convenient TRUTH when fellow Christians talk her out of divorcing her jerk of a husband.
You TRUTH seeking Christians talk one story of Jesus' love, then when it is convenient, you reach back into the old testament for another TRUTH, the TRUTH of abuse of power, particular of men over women. You want the Ten Commandments posted in schools and other public institutions, but you're not so keen about posting the punishments (usually death) for disobeying one of the commandments. You celebrate the death of an abortion doctor, but you refuse to stone to death a close relative after you've learned of their adultery. Your TRUTH is a convenient TRUTH.
As far as the flood goes, maybe some one can answer a question I've had for a long time now. When all the water reached a point where it covered the globe, exactly how did the salt-water fish get along with all of those snooty fresh-water fish?
I take it you've never been salt-water fishing. Salt-water fish have lots of big teeth. Even the cuties can take a chunk out of your hand. I'm thinking the snooty fresh-water fish kept their distance or were eaten by their salt-water brethrens.
In Matthew 4:8, Satan takes Jesus to "the highest mountain in the land, from which he can see all the kingdoms on the face of the earth". Since the Bible is inerrant, this would seem to confirm my suspicions that the earth is really flat.
Battle of Jericho, in Joshua 6, archaeological finds
"It was not until a British archaeologist named Kathleen Kenyon reexcavated the site with modern methods in the 1950s that it was understood what these piles of bricks were. She determined that they were from the city wall which had collapsed when the city was destroyed!
Cross-section of the fallen bricks from the wall of Jericho. The story in the Bible goes on to say that when the walls collapsed, the Israelites stormed the city and set it on fire. Archaeologists found evidence for a massive destruction by fire just as the Bible relates. Kenyon wrote in her excavation report,
“The destruction was complete. Walls and floors were blackened or reddened by fire, and every room was filled with fallen bricks, timbers, and household utensils; in most rooms the fallen debris was heavily burnt.” What caused the strong walls of Jericho to collapse? The most likely explanation is an earthquake. But the nature of the earthquake was unusual. It struck in such a way as to allow a portion of the city wall on the north side of the site to remain standing, while everywhere else the wall fell."
The spies leave Rahab's Jericho wall house.Rahab's house was evidently located on the north side of the city. She was the Canaanite prostitute who hid the Israelite spies who came to reconnoiter the city. The Bible states that her house was built against the city wall. Before returning to the Israelite camp, the spies told Rahab to bring her family into her house and they would be saved. According to the Bible, Rahab's house was miraculously spared while the rest of the city wall fell." This was from Biblical Archaeology Review from March/April 1990
Rahab the harlot was an ancestor of Jesus and is in Hebrews 11 "Hall of Faith" chapter, praising Old Testament people for their exhibiting great faith. The article also talks of Italian "diggers" from 1987.
It is in no way unusual for an earthquake to fell some walls and leave others standing. Anyone who has ever witnessed or been involved in an earthquake will attest to this. The fact that one city wall was left standing would only be considered unique by somebody with no knowledge of earthquakes.
There is absolutely no evidence, biblical or otherwise, that Rahab's house was located along this wall. Rather, this "fact" was surmised AFTER the wall was discovered somewhat intact.
All the archaelogical evidence found was an ancient city which had been destroyed. It should be noted that archaeologists have dug up literally hundreds of such towns in the area.
It is interesting that in Joshua 10:12-13, after once again destroying Jericho, God makes the sun "stand still" so that Joshua can get all his killing done before dark.
It is sort of interesting to note that on the first day, God creates light and separates light from darkness, and day from night. Yet he doesn't get around to creating the sun and stars until the fourth day.
So he spends a full day's work making light and as sort of an afterthought, right before he turns in, he makes trillions and trillions of stars.
Anonymous poster from 2/28 @ 5:53pm with positive message on heaven- Good to have you on board. The comedian W.C. Fields was asked why he was looking over the Bible as he was on his deathbed. His reply, "I'm looking for loopholes."
I agree with you that reflecting on and applying the Bible's truth is time well-spent.
The wealth or prosperity gospel can too easily be dangerously applied. When my focus shifts from God's purpose to my desires, I become the served rather than the servant,in my mind. Bad, bad plan.
Churches now often market Christianity, appealing to certain demographic groups, rather than advancing the Gospel. The Great Commission, Matthew 28:19-20 (NIV) says: "Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I will be with you always, to the very end of the age." A plan that requires dependence on God, sacrifice, and persistence. The result-it turned the world upside down (Acts 17:6).
If the flood in the BIBLE was just a local flood, there would have been no need for an ark. God gave Noah 120 years warning, so he could have simply moved, along with the animals. Plus, he wouldn't have needed an ark that huge. The BIBLE makes it very clear that it was a world-wide event.
The BIBLE states that God forced the Israelites to wander for 40 years, one for every spy they had in Canaan. It has nothing to do with the distance between the two locations. This is a lesson about God's power to punish those who are in disagreement with him.
The Old Testament is assumed to have been originally recorded in Hebrew, with a couple of chapters in Aramaic. Unfortunately, nobody knows where any of this material is, and it wasn't available to scholars whose work we first encounter, who are Greeks around 300 BC.
The New Testament, on the other hand, was originally recorded in Greek after the birth of Christ. The original Greek documents, along with notes, survive.
Even the Dead Sea Scrolls are known to be copies. No original Hebrew or Aramaic works exist. Their versions were all handed down orally.
"You want the Ten Commandments posted in schools and other public institutions"- Post by anonymous 2/28 @5:53pm
The 10 Commandments had been posted in schools (and prayer was allowed) until the 1960's when a combination of Supreme Court rulings outlawed it. The changes that have happened socially and morally in the last 45 years in the U.S. grieves me. The schools seemingly are being used as a laboratory to experiment on children. Learning seems to be secondary.
The Heritage Foundation has "The Index of Leading Cultural Index" which tracks crime, out of wedlock birth, drug usage, etc. much like the government tracks inflation or economic growth. This indicator is up fivefold (has worsened) from back then. There have been many, many changes in this time. To what do you credit for this? I believe the mindset has been turned on upside down, and the 10 Commandment and prayer rulings are indicative of this.
In Tom Brokaw's book on the 1960's ex-president Bill Clinton said, "If you're a Democrat, you probably think the 1960's were a good thing. If you're a Republican, you think it's a bad thing." (my paraphrase) Any thoughts?
The problem I have with putting the ten commandments in those places is that the first four commandments basically keep telling you to worship bow down to this particular God. In lots of places, not all students believe in that particular God, and follow their own. The last six commandments could be posted, and reworded to make better sense to modern citizens. I have no problem with that. I'm sure the church does, though (they are not noted for compromise).
Yes, I have thoughts on this. I'm going to preface these comments by stating that I have known Diamond Dave for 40 years now, and find him to be an intelligent and loyal friend. You won't find a better person to sit down and discuss issues with. We have had disagreements, and they have never erupted into serious rifts. All the editors here, me especially, enjoy the additions his posts have made to our blog.
That being said, let me introduce you to one of our perennial on-going disagreements. Dave attempts, in his last post, to draw a correlation between the lack of religion in the classroom and society's so-called "moral decay".
He obviously views society in general as having gone drastically downhill since his birth. This is a common misconception. Fundamentalists and other conservatives have made this claim since the dawn of time. My father used to say this. So did his father. I'm guessing his dad did too. Society has evolved over history. In the middle ages, people were imprisoned or put to death for their religious beliefs. Debtors were thrown in prison. Homosexuality and sexual promiscuity were part of the culture, but not spoken of, and those found practicing such activities were ostracized or punished. Drug use was world-wide; cocaine derivatives, morphine, and alcohol were commonly used. Beer was being brewed in massive quantities by the ancient Egyptians. Life was short, hard, and miserable.
The youth of every generation is found lacking by their elders. I am sick and tired of listening to some one in his lazy boy, watching his big screen TV, enjoying his central air-conditioned home tell me just how crappy things are. Modern society has evolved to the point where we now know comfort and luxuries that even our recent ancestors couldn't have imagined or afforded.
We now expect to live to 80 years old or so. In 1900, this number was less than 60. We can expect to recieve the best medical, dental, and optical care. Information is at our fingertips. We can travel around the globe, if we choose to - and in a very short time. We can go visit our friends and family no matter where they live. In short, this is a great time to be living.
Diamond Dave will listen to this information, and largely discard it, instead focusing on the problems our society currently has. He thinks that posting the ten commmandments in classrooms is needed. Yet, I seriously doubt that he has them posted in his own home. In fact, ask the religious right, who agrees with Dave on this, just how many of them post the ten commandments in their children's bedrooms? Those kids spend more time there than in the classroom. If these guys are of the opinion that religion can make a difference in their kids' lives, I'm sure they take them to church. They probably make sure that they attend Sunday school. Are they discussing God with them at home regularly? Just how much religion do you want these kids to have? This is up to the PARENTS.
Parenting is the method that will best achieve the results you want. People should not complain about what is taught in schools without combating it at home. I raised two kids. I can tell you without question that if your kids are not being taught something in the classroom, you should be teaching it at home. Schooling doesn't have to stop when your child leaves the school building. If Diamond Dave thinks our society is completely messed up regarding the way we educate our children, he should become an advocate for supplementing their public education with good, old-fashioned parenting skills.
Crime, sex, and debt have been around a long time. Longer than Diamond Dave. If you share Dave's viewpoint, you should stop and consider this: Would you prefer to have lived in 500BC? 1200AD? 1800AD? 1940AD? Of course not. It's like the Canadian healthcare system. Everyone complains about its inadequacies. Ask them if they would like to privatize it again. 99% will emphatically say NO.
People will always complain, find faults, and dwell on problems. Life is what you make of it. Neither society nor our government will collapse in our lifetimes. Or our children's. Other societies have survived a lot longer than us with problems of their own.
Posting the ten commandments in public places as a way of combating society's problems is absurd. Ask the next guy who suggests this if he has them posted in his home. He will say no. Try posting them at home first. Why do you want this stuff posted everywhere but refuse to do it in your own house? As anonymous previously said, the problem with posting the commandments is that they don't all address society's problems. Nearly half of them are nothing more than instructions on how to worship God. You see, you could just post a list of rules to live by, like "no killing" or "no stealing" or "no lying". Dave and his religious brethren would not find that to be good enough. It's not the rules they want posted - it's the worship part.
That is why you can't post them publicly. Different people worship different gods. It's the same story with religious fanatics that we have encountered again and again since the dawn of time. They want everyone to worship THEIR god, so they end up moving or finding somewhere where they can live together, all alike. Unfortunately for them, that is not possible in the US (generally speaking). You must learn to accept other people's beliefs, and respect them.
My advice to Diamond Dave and his followers would be to get out of the 60's. That was 50 years ago.
You make excellent points about parenting and personal responsibility. I agree completely and part of the problem is a "blame culture" that points outward rather than examining itself. It's more socially acceptable to rant about society than to mumble depressingly about your past indiscretions and mistakes. That's probably a good thing, though.
I'd be OK with listing 6 of the 10 Commandments. Those address issues of hating, stealing, gossipping and honesty.
William Bennett in 1993 WSJ article "Quantifying America's Decline" talked of 560% increase in violent crime, 419% + in illegitimate births, quadrupling of the divorce rates, tripling of children in sinle family homes, an increase in teen suicide and SAT scores are down 80 points.
Perhaps more than anything else, America's cultural decline is evidence of a shift in the public's attitudes and beliefs. Social scientist James Q. Wilson writes that ``the powers exercised by the institutions of social control have been constrained and people, especially young people, have embraced an ethos that values self-expression over self-control.'' The findings of pollster David Yankelovich seem to confirm this diagnosis. Our society now places less value than before on what we owe to others as a matter of moral obligation; less value on sacrifice as a moral good; less values on social conformity and respectability; and less value on correctness and restraint in matters of physical pleasure and sexuality.
Some writers have spoken eloquently on these matters. When the late Walker Percy was asked what concerned him most about America's future he answered: ``Probably the fear of seeing America with all its great strength and beauty and freedom...gradually subside into decay through default and be defeated, not by the Communist movement demonstrably a bankrupt system but from within by weariness boredom cynicism greed and in the end helplessness before its great problems.'' Alexander Solzhenitsyn in a speech earlier this year put it this way: ``The West...has been undergoing an erosion and obscuring of high moral and ethical ideals. The spiritual axis of life has grown dim.'' John Updike has written: ``The fact that compared to the inhabitants of Africa and Russia, we still live well cannot ease the pain of feeling we no longer live nobly.''
I've heard of Plato or some Greek from 2300+years ago ranting about the terrible youth of that time. Do you think there is a problem? My question in the middle of my last post "to what do you credit this?" What has turned our society this direction?
Let's talk about the role of women in society. Many churches will not allow them to minister. They are not allowed in the priesthood (paving the way for its take-over by homosexuals). Why is this?
I am not finding anything in the bible directing this exclusion of women. I find massive references to women being treated inferior, but nothing specific. What gives?
In Genesis 7:8, Noah takes two of every creature onto the ark (all in one day, no less). A few verses later, he takes seven of each creature on the ark. Just which is it, anyway?
Anonymous- in Genesis 7:2(NIV) "Take with you 7 of every kind of CLEAN(according to the kosher dietary laws, these could be eaten) animals, a male and its mate, & 2 of every kind of unclean animal(not to be eaten) a male and its mate."
Rick- 1 Timothy 2:12 (NIV)-"I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent." Indicates no.
Joel 2:28 and Acts 2:17-18 indicates prophesy (I think) in the last days by all people-woman included. Indicates yes to some extent. Sorry for the fence riding.
This is a recurrent theme you'll find in the bible. The verse Diamond Dave uses to justify not allowing women into the ministry is quite clear. "Do not permit a woman to teach or have authority over a man".
Diamond Dave has fallen into my trap. That verse makes it very clear that women should not be teachers, supervisors, trainers, counselors, executives, professors, authors, committee leaders, legislators, judges, jurists, jailers, managers, loan officers, policemen, landlords, lecturers, tutors, coaches, rangers, officers, detectives, bouncers, security guards, government agents, administrators, superintendants, principals, directors, engineers, foremen, air traffic controllers, instructors, ministers, priests, case officers, business representatives, referees, officials, producers, sea captains, lieutenants, assistant managers, department heads, financial advisors, regulators, rabbis, bailiffs, magistrates, small business owners, shop stewards, large business owners, boardmembers, councilmen, commissioners, navigators, well, you get the idea. The bible clearly states that women cannot teach men, or have any kind of authority over men.
People like Diamond Dave twist the meaning of this passage until it resembles a pretzel. They make exceptions for basically anything that they find convenient or necessary. Whatever they're comfortable with is OK. However, the things that make them uncomfortable, they won't allow. Like no pastors. The bible doesn't have a verse that says "women are not allowed to teach the word of God". The only verse Dave gives us says that women can't teach ANYTHING.
Obviously, neither Dave nor his ilk are following those guidelines. The bible says women should remain silent. They are not to speak unless spoken to. That is why it was difficult for them to be heard - even if they were reporting being raped. Back then, their word was insignificant. They would need witnesses, or the charges would be denied, the woman ostracized, her life ruined, and the accused freed.
It seems to me very hypocritical to bar women from preaching based on verses like that, yet allow them to be the voice of authority in so many other places.
14 These things write I unto thee, hoping to come unto thee shortly: 15 But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.
"If two men are struggling together, and the wife of one comes near to deliver her husband from the hand of the one who is striking him, and puts out her hand and seizes his genitals, then you shall cut off her hand; you shall not show pity."
Women ministers What I took from the Bible and posted indicated it could be looked at more than one way. The church I am currently a member of allows and has had women pastors. There are times it has been a very controversial issue in the church, more so in the recent past. It is not a critical issue to me.
Rick and I have both been a member of a denomination that did not allow women preachers.
I found an interesting web-site, http://www.themonkeytrial.com/ about the Scopes monkey trial of 1925. It contrasts the play and movie "Inherit the Wind" with what actually happened. Judges and schools have used the movie as a reference for what happened.
Remember Johnny Cash's song "A Boy named Sue"? They think that was the Dayton, TN city attorney, Sue Hicks, who arrested and prosecuted Scopes.
You know why "they" think it was Sue Hicks? Because those are the only two guys that were ever named Sue. Only reason. If the attorney had been named "Bob", no one would have made any connection.
Ever watch when they show young people, or children, after they've been removed from a cult? They will just mindlessly parrot whatever has been drilled into their heads for the past several years.
I find a parallel to this when I hear people tell me how the bible is the "holy word of God". Surely these guys have the mental capacity to see that the only proof there is of that is in the bible itself. That's right - the bible says that the bible is holy and inerrant. These folks would never believe any other book if it were to be the only source of its claims.
That would be like you guys saying that Jefferson Iowa News was inerrant. How would I know if that was true or not? Because JIN said so, of course.
It is tremendous proof of what long-term relentless brainwashing can do, especially when begun at a young age. The fact that adults still parrot this statement as fact with no corroborating proof whatsoever sounds exactly like the kids I mentioned at the beginning of this post.
Back to the issue of cultural decline. Decline from what? Can't you see that when discussing cultural decline you are by and large referring to morality?
When speaking of morality, the decline that you suggest we are in is basically relative. Relative to your own personal moral code. You quickly rattle off single-parent homes, teen pregnancy, illegitimate births, and divorce rates as signs of cultural decline. I submit that, for the most part, what you see here is nothing more than moralizing.
Perhaps you would prefer we regress back to Victorian times. Believe me, between 1890 and 1930, things went downhill morally if you consider the West's disenchantment with rigid Victorian socially accepted behavior that took place over that period.
How about instead, we select a different reference point? Maybe between 1920 and 1960? During that period, we saw prohibition removed, marijuana use introduced, rock and roll music, rises in divorce rates, and the beginning of birth control.
Cultural decline is in your own mind, that is all. When you see people doing things you don't approve of, you will naturally find them morally incorrect. Society by definition will never be perfect; it will always have evolving standards. You can get on the bus, or stay at home and watch.
On this topic of posting the ten commandments in schools -
Diamond Dave is on record saying that he doesn't necessarily mean all ten commandments - he would be OK with only the last 6 posted (dropping the first four which are instructions on worship).
To the casual reader, this sounds just fine. After all, the final six commandments simply give directions such as "don't lie, steal, cheat, or kill". But guess what? Dave needs to look around. Those things are already posted in some form or other in every school in America! I'll take you there and show you! Hy-Vee, for example, hires lots of kids. Guess what is posted in every Hy-Vee breakroom? Right! Qualities they expect young adults to practice. Things like integrity, honesty, and respect.
The problem I keep trying to drive home on this issue is that none of these postings seem to be working (according to Diamond Dave). Anyone who thinks rewording them and adding religious overtones would make a difference has his head in the sand. The difference needs to come from HOME.
As I said before, try posting the commandments in your own home before putting them up in everybody else's.
A good example of the bible's opinion of women, as opposed to men, is best summed up in Leviticus 12:1-8. These verses explain the procedure one is to follow after childbirth.
After giving birth to a son, she is basically ostracised for seven days, after which she is to remain untouched for 33 days, for she is considered unclean. If she gives birth to a daughter, on the other hand, the entire period of uncleanliness is doubled to 14 and 66 days, respectively.
There are also literally hundreds of bible verses that contradict themselves with regard to ancestral records. When you go through these, you come away knowing that the bible cannot be used to develop timelines, or family lineages. I know the Old Testament is filled with them, but that doesn't mean they are accurate.
For example, in Exodus 3:1, we learn that Jethro is the father-in-law of Moses. Fine. Unfortunately, in Numbers 10:29, we find Hobab is the father-in-law of Moses.
I know this is just one error. But trust me, they're everywhere. I'll be happy to print a few more on request. So before you decide to count begats backward and decide how old the earth is, please realize that these records are mostly from memory of events which took place hundreds of years before the bible was written.
I find it kind of weird that the serpent in Genesis 3:1-5 apparently is able to speak in Hebrew (I guess). This animal talks but I don't understand why none of the others do. And what are the odds that they speak the same language?
Don't write in and say that everyone spoke the same language before the tower of babel. In Genesis 10:5,20, and 31, the bible refers to people speaking different languages.
I believe the most damaging practice towards women in ancient times was polygamy. It was worldwide, like slavery. It's still practiced in 1/3 of the world. Osama bin Laden's father had over 50 sons. How many wives? I don't know. I can think or few (then) "mainstream" customs as demeaning as being 10th wife out of 10. King David and Solomon were prime examples of this. David's family was a tragedy, rife with rape, incest, murder and treason. Polygamy waned following then. By the time of Jesus it had stopped, without a command from God.
An Arabic tome would NEVER, not now, not then, have listed the passage in Proverbs 31 about the virtuous woman. Check out the tasks and responsibilities in 1000B.C. that she undertook!
Women's place had obviously improved markedly during Jesus time. Martha sat at his feet while he taught. He put the men who brought the woman caught in adultery in their place. He pardoned her and told her to go and sin no more. he spoke to the outcast woman at the well, who had been married 5 or 6 times. Women discovered Jesus' resurrection and the empty tomb. The Love Chapter, 1 Corinthians 13, fits perfectly in the context of the New Testament.
Ephesians 5:25-27 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself up for her; 26 that He might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, 27 that He might present to Himself the church in all her glory, having no spot or wrinkle or any such thing; but that she should be holy and blameless.
The bloggers here cite an epidemic of women's cultural abuse in the Bible. I contend that the role and treatment of women in 1940 was closer to 900 B.C. or 30 A.D. than to 2010. I believe it was less than 100 years ago that woman got the vote in a country of any size in the world. WW II brought women into the workforce en masse. The birth control pill was invented about 1960. In 1950"girls just want to have fun" in that way was ludicrous, bcz of the price that would be paid. Although Phyllis Schlafly single-handedly turned back the Equal Rights Amendment for women in the late 1970's, there has been a legal avalanche in Christendom (Europe and much of the old British Empire) benefiting women. It's been in the last few years there are more women entering law and medical school than men in the U.S.
Yet, in most of the world, women's roles are still closer to 1500 B.C. than 2010 in what was called Christendom. Explain why that is, please.
If we were pre-1972 USA state of women(before NY Rep. Shirley Chisholm ran for the Democratic nomination for President) we wouldn't have the joys of discussing ex Gov. Palin's quick rise with so little going for her.
Al Gore is predicting a global warming for women's receptivity to Jefferson Iowa News. He's concerned about the tone, but believes with the proper care and nurturing (and massive federal aid) we can progress to a post Neanderthal, pre Cro-Magnon state. He expects numerous speaking engagements and a modest monthly stipend in return. He is hoping to export this model to Buddhist and Hundu cultures worldwide, with the eventual goal of invading, umm, influencing Tehran and their sort. Global warming is freezing over and a new business model must be explored.
Iona Trailer, what say you about JIN and its general worldview, attitude and treatment of women? Better than the Old Testament, New Testament, Islam or ex-President Bill Clinton, none of the above or all of the above? It's OK to answer anonymously, but please post (it's me) at the end of your diatribe, rant, cry for help or earnest plea for a scintilla of repect and/or dignity.
Through thorough assembling of demographic data on the denizens of this dialog driven website, and Big Nasty's constant cries of "I am not a maam!", with lab results confirming Mr. Nasty's screams, he is, in fact, NOT a Sheila but is a Shamus. Much to our chagrin, "Nasty" is in fact a raging roid ranger with testosterone counts triple that of the average poster (the myriad Anonymous's caved the level to make B. Nasty appear an exceptionally manly man). Sanctions were considered, but he's the only one above the mean on the testosterone count, so Rick and Tars (Marty, you owe me big time for not including you w/this sordid, diabolic duo, so you have some krugerrands, eh?) squealed like mincing schoolgirls pleading pitifully for him to stay on and inspire the rest of us. Oh yes, modern science, led by JIN's own Vince Hawking, and under Tars' watchful eye, will be doing a massive 10 year stimulus funded study on Nasty, to find how he "swam uphill" w/his Testosterone counts actually increasing. Thus heroically fighting the debilitating, near crippling, emasculating effects Sly Stallone and all other supposed masculine abusers of performance enhancing drugs, willingly endure. By the way Big, it paid off with your near bronze in curling in Vancouver, reclaiming Jefferson's Olympic presence and favor not seen since the glory days of Doreen Wilber and Jackie Fie. How dare they say curling is a team sport. You rule! But, once again, I digress(about as much as usual).
Iona Trailer, the "Lone Stranger" posting of the female persuasion, a resident of growth drunk, welcoming, friendly Granger, is courageously taking on Jtown as a stray pet desperately needing her nurture, assistance and acumen. With the Chamber's promised unsigned, inducement of a telethon pledge funded 4.125% (it is a muni after all)30 year triple exempt toxic, DDD rated municipal bond of $17.44, at her side, she is championing Jefferson's cause back to normal Iowa rural economic health. Iona, is much too refined a lady to stoop to reading the putrid pablum passed on this post/thread, is busy beyond belief with this bulging, burden to bear.
How can we shame/dupe/fool/cajole/ convince/encourage/reward Ms. Trailer to fulfill us with her feminine, fragranced, fresh findings and insights about women's advances since Deuteronomy, chastity belts and the flappers of speakeasy times? She's the only dance hall gal from around these parts who will talk to us, 'cept for that Alaskan moose gutter, and we're fascinated/scared spitless of her.
The Sarah Palin, religion-based driven animus between Rick Bland and me resulted in an epic, long anticipated donnybrook.
The promoter, one head shaved ShaftNasty... (shut your mouth!) found a dungeon in Woodward and coerced Tars Tarkus, a renowned L.A. boxing referee, to officiate.
Rick's hair pulling dominated the early rounds. Rick pummelled Diamond to the melodic "Folsom Prison Blues" (yes, I WAS once a young man...) rendition from the musical stylings of Dana Kirby on bass, Marty Bryant, lead singer and Cheshire Cat juggler extraordinaire teamed with Rich, a feline-allergic-cat-dodger on the trombones. Monty Larson, famed vampire hunter, was unfortunately unavailable to set a discernible tempo. Braxton phoned in that it was 85 and sunny in Arizona. Tars' near deal-breaker was insisting on the musical illiterate, Tony Kendall, on lead guitar. Tars said he was going to walk, Rick explained the geographic consequences and colder heads (Ted Williams, actually) prevailed. Tony exceeded even himself. Meanwhile, Commissioner Copeland is expected to rule on Tony's presence before the 2016 Summer Olympics... maybe. A plethora of interviews over this controversy is delaying this crucial ruling.
Rick was yelling something about Palin, part of the Monty Python comedic troupe, or Padin, the long underwear wearing pseudo-cowboy in Silverado. Diamond urged him to enunciate properly to no avail. Diamond was aided by his handlers at the end of each round by crashing him end over end to the corner. After smelling salts were slammed into his nasal cavity, like so many M&M's, Diamond courageously stood upright to answer the bell before the 7th round, while DWTS destined Rick tripped over his dainty feet. Diamond ripped off his gloves and thumped Rick in the forehead repeatedly , much like the chinese water torture of his childhood, only to the rhythm of Neil Diamond's (no relation, but he made a great cantor in the updated "Jazz Singer")"Coming to America".
The crowd- 4 guys named Anonymous in trenchcoats who paid a buck, seemed strangely melancholy after the Folsom song, but mutely applauded uproariously, after the patriotic Neil (no relation) Diamond set. The ace JIN court side reporter, Mike and Phil (2 heads are better than one)discovered, after much sign language and 6 pads of paper, that Anonymous's brothers are the most famous trio of Vermonters ever, Larry, Darrell and his other brother Virile. Surprisingly enuf, Virile was the only one to father children (human, that is) and he had 7,217 after his gut-wrenching, near family destroying pilgrimage to Salt Lake City. Virile proudly supports 3 of his offspring. The federal government is pleased to supply the stability so necessary for this close-knit "village."
There is no reliable account of the fight's result. No rematch was begged for by both parties. Buford T., Sherlockianly uncovered on genealogy.com, massive interrelated connections between other underground, local and national nefarious fighting federations with those involved with this fight. Commissioner Copeland will help Buford to ensure the findings proceed quickly to the proper int'l. authorities. SPECTRE, a natural co-conspirator in this dastardly plot, is currently being bombarded with faxes and emails asking the nature of their business and associations and if they have any available, attractive women of proper social stature, (5'6 to 5'10preferred, which got hopelessly muddled bcz of the confounded intricacies of the evil metric system) yearning for hearth and home w/strong shouldered lawn mowing types getting first crack.
Multiple car problems after the bout found Shorty unavailable bcz of a daily brief 1/2 hour respite. Unknown tow trucks and law enforcement eventually, mercifully assisted those in need. Iona Trailer, altho nearby in suburban Granger, was frantically attempting to save the metropolis once remembered as Jefferson, surviving brutal 400 hour weeks, & thus had to decline appearing as the between rounds glamour gal for those who couldn't count. She has diligently discovered available federal stimulus money where billable hours over 32 are 2x time.
The last thing I recall was Rip van Winkle singing "Waking Up Is Hard To Do" sounding like a more nasal, posthomous Neil Sedaka.
If Marty Bryant(any relation to Anita of orange juice fame?)had time, I know a to the point WTF TTS(what's that fellow, trying to say) post would immediately follow this. ShaftNasty, currently incommunicado, exhausted from the boxing promoter's grind, and from dodging Don King's brillo-headed bullets, will talk to the hand for me on this one.
I guess I'll comment. On second thought, seeing how you guys are all throwing bible verses back and forth, it would be easier to just let the bible speak for itself. After reading these verses, you tell me how the Israelites treated their women.
Leviticus 21:9 - "And the daughter of any priest, if she profane herself by playing the whore, she shall be burnt with fire."
This means that if a priest's daughter loses her virginity outside of marriage, she must be burned at the stake. Wonder what happens to the guy?
Corinthians 11:8-9 - "The man was not created for the woman, but the woman for the man."
The bible's decree of male supremacy has kept women inferior to men for centuries.
Deuteronomy 22:13-21 - These verses are a little long, but what they say is that if a man lies with a woman, the girl's father must provide proof of her virginity in order to make the man pay her family (father) 100 shekels, and not return her (as she is now unwanted). But if the bride's virginity does not satisfy the requirements, then the man can get rid of her by letting people from the city stone her to death. Cute.
Ephesians 5:22-24 - "Wives, submit yourselves unto your husbands ... in everything."
These words of Paul (New Testament) include "everything" which most women rightly agree includes rape, beating, slavery, etc.
Corinthians 14:34-35 - "Let your women keep silent, and if they learn anything, let it be from their husband at home."
Again, if any one wants to find out why women are treated inferior to men, one only needs to look in the bible.
Hosea 13:16 - In theses verses, God is angry with a nearby village, so he commands the Israelites to "dash all the infants to pieces" and "rip apart all the pregnant women". He speaks of no punishment for the men or boys.
I hardly think that it speaks to the improved state of a woman's lot when she is allowed to "sit at the feet" of a man. This Diamond Dave sounds like he seriously believes that men should be superior to women. That's why he doesn't think women had it so bad. It just doesn't sound that bad to him - that's the way he really views things.
I am not sure Diamond Dave understands just how bad women had it, throughout the bible. They were treated as possesions in the Middle East all through history, regardless of their religion. That is why fathers were paid if their daughters were found to have had sex. No longer a virgin, their value was greatly diminished. As a possesion, they wanted to be reimbursed.
The statement that the role of women in 1940 was closer to that in 900BC than now displays a massive lack of knowledge on the subject. In 900BC, if you were a woman, you were not allowed to voice your opinion, wear whatever you wanted, hold public office, have a job, file for divorce (file for anything), disagree with your spouse (often even select your spouse), go to school, attend public events (without your husband), learn to read or write, own property, be heir to your husband's property, borrow money, vote, etc.
Furthermore, you generally were made to live apart from your family during your menstrual cycle, and for a time after childbirth. You were expected to address your husband as "master", and do as he commanded. Laws were written to exclusively protect men, and women had virtually no recourse in disputes with their hubands, even if they involved physical altercations. In cases of rape, eyewitnesses were required as proof that the act was not consensual.
The bible has always been one of the main reasons women have been treated poorly. Throughout history, when people looked to the bible for answers, they found passages that were written placing women in a subservient role, and they adopted that mindset. Diamond Dave thinks that somehow the New Testament changed everything. How else could anyone possibly compare women's roles in society in 900BC and 1940AD and conclude they were more nearly the same than in the past 70 years? Does he really think his grandmother was treated that badly?
It looks to me like he doesn't really appreciate what it would be like to be simply a posession of another person, to be used and/or discarded at will, to be deliberately kept ignorant, and be given no voice in your own life.
Just another example of why the bible should be read more carefully. Some lessons can be learned from it by not repeating the mistakes it records during the time period in which it was written. We simply cannot pattern our lives after those in ancient times.
Just a note about Proverbs 31, the passage Dave refers to when speaking of how women are treated in the bible. Proverbs 31 spends 30 or so verses basically describing how valuable a good wife is. While Dave finds these passages proof of the bible's fair treatment of women, modern females are greatly distressed by them.
In these verses, wives are described as "valuable" because they perform so many tasks required by her family. She cooks, sews, cleans, etc. Modern women have ambitions beyond mundane household tasks. Most modern men have no problem with this. My guess is that Diamond Dave does. At no place in the bible will you find similar praise for women who perform tasks associated more with men.
Also, Dave points out that polygamy is currently practiced in 1/3 of the world. However, he slips in the note (in the same paragraph), that polygamy waned by the time Christ arrived. Once again, he is trying to have things both ways. I'm sure he will argue that he was referring to Christians only.
The problem is, many other cultures were still following the bible. The passages that seemed to approve of polygamy were still there, in black and white, for other religions to read and interpret. The Mormons still do it today in some places. You can't just say that the bible allowed it, then things changed and it was no longer acceptable. Once you get thing like that wrong the first time (for a few thousand years), it's tough to just write a correction.
By and large, however, there was no discenable difference in attitudes toward women from one religion to anotheruntil very recently in man's history.
I apologize for my senseless supposed stories of 3/8. I was manic and the filters we normally have to prevent us from going "Thelma and Louise" were obviously not working that day. To anonymous posters in particular, sorry for the repeated jabs. These posts shows the benefits of anonymity.
Everywhere these Hebrews go, they keep running into giants. There's races og giants all over the place - even after the flood. I don't see how Noah's family could have produced these giants through incestiary relationships. People who believe in giants are idiots.
In Exodus, the Israelite population went from 70 or so to several million in a few hundred years (1:5-7, 12:37, 38:26).
This is not possible. No amount of extrapolating gets you to these numbers. The entire population of Israel in Jesus' time was almost certainly less than 10,000. Yet the bible continually has them fighting battles with over a million warriors.
Why are people born with disabilities? Because God wants them to be, that's why.
In the Old Testament, God is always striking people with leprosy. He wants them to suffer a long, miserable death.
In Numbers 23:22 and 24:8, God has "the strength of a unicorn". It seems tha unicorns are not just ordinary horses. They have some kind of magical powers.
In Kings 1:39-40, when Solomon was annointed king, the people rejoiced so loudly that it caused an earthquake. There is no way that noise causes veartquakes, I'm sorry.
I've done some research on this whole "speaking in tongues" thing. It appears obvious to me (many biblical researchers agree) that the word "tongues" is repeatedly used in the bible in the place of "languages".
A perfect example is Acts 1:4-8. Christ's followers are gathered in a building, and the spirit of the Lord descends upon them. They experience the miracle of being able to speak in other languages. That doesn't at first appear to be that big of a deal; lots of people today can do that. But, 2,000 years ago it was a big deal. When this occurred, people in the street heard all the foreign languages being spoken, and Christ's followers were thus suddenly able to communicate with them, allowing them to convert them to Christianity.
The ability to speak in tongues (read:foreign languages) was a miraculous way of gaining new converts into the church who would otherwise have been left out.
Speaking in tongues was viewed as a miracle back then. At the Tower of Babel, God performed the miracle of granting everyone present the ability to speak in foreign tongues. None of this is considered miraculous today. Some churches read the word miracle and assume that what was a miracle back then must still be a miracle today. That leads them to conclude that there must be more to it than just speaking other languages. That is simply not the case.
This also explains the "miracle" of interpreters. Interpreters are nothing more than they are today. They translate foreign languages into a native "tongue".
People do not talk in tongues. First of all, God doesn't talk. These people are not divine; they do not possess a unique connection with the Holy Spirit. If anything they are schizophrenic. They need medication.
The people doing this are seeking attention. They have a need for attention even at the price of diverting everyone else's attention away from worshipping God to watching them. Only the most gullible of Christ's followers fail to see this.
Why doesn't anyone bring up the fact that Sarah Palin believes in faith healing and speaking in tongues? The vast majority of voters see through these obvious scams. When these facts come out, her candidacy will be DOA.
While governor, Palin asked the entire state to pray for the new Alaskan pipeline to be built. She apparently believes that the "end times" are nearing, and environmental issues are thus unimportant.
She has also called for intelligent design (creationism) to be taught in all public schools.
Here's a nice old bible story you can tell your children tonight before they go to bed. Get the bible out, and turn to Judges, 19:22-30.
A man and his girlfriend are walking the streets, looking for a place to spend the night. They finally find a man kind enough to let them stay. However, later that night a group of men show up at the door and demand to see the guest and have sex with him. The owner, who is unwilling to allow his male lodger to be raped, offers up his virgin gaughter instead. This still isn't good enough, though, so the man offers up his guest's girlfriend, and the men accept. They brutally rape the woman, and leave her on the doorstep, where she bleeds to death. When she is found by her husband, he is furious with her and chops her up into twelve pieces, which he sends to each of the twelve tribes of Israel. No word on their reactions to the gifts.
Anonymous said "No word on their reactions to the gifts."
Read Judges 20 and 21 for the reaction. Tens of thousands are killed, including all women and children of the Benjamites (a tribe of Israel). In order to replenish the Benjamites, God commands the Israelites to go to Jabesh Gilead (for they had failed to assemble before the Lord) and slaughter all males (which includes infants) and women who were not virgins. The virgins were to be used as breeding stock for the Benjamites.
Of course, their numbers were not enough, so God commanded that the Benjamite men go and kidnap the virgin girls of Shiloh to increase their breeding stock of females.
In Judges 19, the term concubine doesn't mean girlfriend but rather a secondary wife, usually of inferior rank to the primary wife. In those days, who knows, she may have been wife number 18.
In the Old Testament, God is a blood-thirsty mass murderer. God particularly enjoys killing women (non-virgins) and children (boys, and girls that probably aren't old enough to lay with).
In strict Sharia-law countries even today, stoning is the penalty one pays for committing adultery (four eyewitnesses are required to state that they saw the parties sexually interact). However, according to Sharia, the correct thing to do is not tell anybody and repent to Allah.
Husbands can launch charges against their wives with no evidence but their own, and can take an oath four times to meet the requirement of having four witnesses.
In June of 2009, Iran decided to stop stoning people, and took that punishment off the books. In Taliban-led areas, it is still practiced.
In Somalia, in October of 2008, a 13-year-old girl was gang-raped by three men. Following Sharia law, she was found guilty of having sex out of wedlock. She was then buried up to her neck at a football stadium, and stoned to death in front of a crowd of 1,000 spectators.
In Deuteronomy 21, stoning is stated to be the punishment for those who rebel against their parents.
Ezekial is a sort of fun book to read. Ezekial sees UFOs, for instance. Check out Ezekial 38:8 - In this verse God makes the sun move backwards for a while. A good example of a verse you probably won't hear about in church.
The Perry Mexicans that I mentioned earlier have formed a band named Glossolalia. All they do is speak in tongues. They play all night long and still can't get laid.
In case anyone is still reading this thread, I'd like to clarify a few things on "speaking in tongues". As a Christian, I believe in the power of speaking in tongues, BUT - in recent years some otherwise devout Christians are seriously misinterpreting the meaning of this great gift. The Holy Spirit bestowed this gift on his followers at the first Pentecost, and still does today - occasionally. The Bible clearly does not state that ALL who have the Holy Spirit will have this gift. Read 1Corinthians 12:27-31. Churches who teach otherwise have been sidetracked. For instance:
1Corinthians 14:22 plainly states that speaking in tongues "is not a sign for those that believe, but for those that do not believe". Speaking in tongues was/is a miracle God has intended as a way of reaching people who need to be saved. I have personally attended services in churches where virtually the entire congregation was speaking in tongues. When this is happening in churches, this is NOT of God Almighty. This is exactly the type of behavior that misguided souls will be practicing in the end times.
You cannot say that ALL Christians have the gift of tongues any more than you can say they ALL have the gift of healing, prophecy, teaching, or anything else. God has said that the Holy Spirit divides these gifts up as he sees fit (1Corinthians 12:11).
Furthermore, the gift of tongues as presented by the Holy Spirit is much more valuable than merely talking gibberish and having somebody interpret it. Many reports from our overseas missionaries come back stating that even though our pastor was preaching the word in English, the crowd of Swaheeli, et. al. stated they understood him to be speaking perfectly in their native tongue. If you were to witness this on more than one occasion, as I have, it would dawn on you what the true meaning of this great gift is. Many, many people have been saved by it, and nobody is saved by speaking misguided gibberish to each other when tongues are not needed.
At the first Pentecost, even though the Apostles were all speaking Galilean, people from many regions ALL heard them speaking to them in their native tongue! That, my friend, is the true meaning of speaking in tongues. This, my friend, is TONGUES. Not the gibberish you see in churches. Tongues is a REAL language given by the Almighty so as to break the language barrier for the proclamation of the Gospel.
And what happens when some one miraculously speaks in people's native language before their very eyes? PEOPLE ARE SAVED! When a man walks into a church and everyone is speaking gibberish, what does he do? He leaves! 1Corinthians 14-23 confirms it!
1Corinthians chapter 14 - "except ye utter by the tongue WORDS EASILY UNDERSTOOD, how shall it be known what is spoken? For ye shall speak into the air."
What is being spoken in churches today is gibberish and demonic.
Anonymous said "Many reports from our overseas missionaries come back stating that even though our pastor was preaching the word in English, the crowd of Swaheeli, et. al. stated they understood him to be speaking perfectly in their native tongue. If you were to witness this on more than one occasion, as I have, it would dawn on you what the true meaning of this great gift is."
Of course, this is impossible to document other than taking someone's word for it. How about a quiz after one of these miracles of the Holy Spirit (assuming the people aren't bilingual)?
Are there scientific errors in the Bible? The examination of some verses would seem to indicate that there are. In Joshua 10:12, "The sun stood still in the midst of the heavens".
In this verse, God makes the sun stand still. But today we know that the sun always stands still. So there you have it. Does the sun move around the earth or not? You can't have it both ways. Today, Christians and Jews are somewhat embarrassed by these passages, and try to ignore them.
The mistake in the narrative is based on the assumption that the earth is flat. There are literally hundreds of bible passages that refer to a flat earth. The reader must ask himself if he is prepared to believe these passages and/or defend them. If you don't believe that the sun moves around the earth, then the bible has scientific errors.
The Bible is full of ritual sacrifices, but your minister probably doesn't bring up the ritual HUMAN sacrifices that you find there. You'll God accepting human sacrifices in Judges 11:29-40 (Jephthah sacrifices his virgin daughter to the Lord in exchange for a victory in battle), Joshua 7:15 (human sacrifices commanded by God), 1 Kings 13:1-2 (pagan kings are burnt as offerings), etc.
There is no sense in any of this. Just like the tale of God demanding Abraham sacrifice his son Isaac and then, at the last minute, stopping him. This is not a story of God's love - just pure unadulterated evil.
Just a few Bible verses for those of you to ponder who may agree with Diamond Dave that women's roles at the time of Christ were not tremendously different than they were in the 19th century.
Exodus 21:7-11: "When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as men are. If he takes her as one of his wives, he may not reduce her food or clothing."
Zechariah 14:1-2: (Quoting the Lord)"There shall come a day when I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem for battle, the city shall be taken, houses plundered, women ravished, and everyone else removed."
Judges 5:30: "They must be dividing the spoils they took: there must be a damsel or two for eacdh man."
Deuteronomy 21:10-14: "When in war, the Lord, your God, delivers captive enemies into your hand, if you see a comely woman among them, you may take her home and have her for your wife."
2 Samuel 12:11-14: These are poorly written verses and hard to understand, but the meaning seems to be that God brings innocent rape victims to the rapists, forces them to have sex publicly in broad daylight, then kills the infant when it is born. So much for abortion.
Deuteronomy 22:28-29: "If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman, he must then marry her."
In the Bible, women are constantly being sold for 50 sheckles, or traded for asses, etc. They are instructed to remain silent and cover themselves in public. They are not merely treated as possessions; they ARE possessions. They are punished for speaking to other men, or evenm speaking period. They are forcibly raped, enslaved, and kept free of all learning and education. They are virtually unprotected by the law.
By the time the 19th century rolled around, women were voting in lots of places. They were protected by law from rape, slavery, and disrespect. Women had become key members of the family, not just one of many wives or goats. They were educated, and, indeed, often teachers. They were landowners, and taxpayers.
Comparing women between these two eras displays a complete void of knowledge on the subject of women.
Thank you for giving me more than the benefit of the doubt with your19th century mention of when women's roles were more like Bible times than 2010. My brother who is more Biblically knowledgeable, would have said 30AD (omitting my 900BC claim-I was wrong that Hebrew polygamy ceased then. It also takes care of much of the OT law, slavery, and war-rape and pillage Bible verses that have dominated this thread) compared to 1880, more than a generation before women's suffrage ocurred in Christendom and the developed nations of the world.
In the references in Zechariah and 2 Samuel God was not condoning these actions, simply judging their disobedience and prophesying that they would happen in the future. A)in Zech. bcz of Israel's idolatry and turning from God, B)bcz of King David's adultery with Bathsheba and killing her husband Uriah.
The Exodus and 2 Deuteronomy references-slavery and war are still apart of life today. In each of those sections there are protections for the women.
1 Samuel 16:7..."For the Lord sees not as man sees; man looks onthe outward appearance, but the Lord looks on the heart." When Samuel anointed David as king, years before he became king. God's ways are not our ways. God looks on the heart.
My brother works in the IT dept. and has worked with Asian Indians and in India. Currently in parts of their patriarchal society, a 50 year old man will have his father talk with an employer to see if he wants his son to take that position. The OT was a patriarchal system. The eldest son inherited the bigger share and had a much bigger responsibility. In Eastern cultures today, many men hate the thought of their parent's death bcz of the coming burden of great responsibility. In the book of Ruth, who was a widow,her kinsman redeemer had the right and responsibilty to marry his brothers (or closest of kin's) widow. That man rejected this claim and Boaz, the next in line married her.
My brother mentioned to me that when God exacted capital punishment, it was because the offender had "lost his heart." The teen who sassed, the woman who had sex out of wedlock were showing disobedient independence and disrespect to their father, whose responsibilty they were. This is a hard concept antithetical to our time, but necessary for order for the culture that would produce the Messiah.
Christ's coming, death and resurrection fulfilled the Law and brought on the direct counsel and internal guidance of the Holy Spirit. This ia a big transition from the external Law's dominance of the OT.
Diamond Dave should teach a course of bovine scatology. In regard to women, God could have easily declared "Men and women are equal in the eyes of God. Any man who treats a woman any less than he would treat Me will forever burn in the fires of Hell. I'm talking to you, Abraham. I'm talking to you, Moses. I'm talking to all men anywhere, anytime. Do you dumbf***s understand what I'm saying?" This statement, or something similar, should not have been one of the commandments. But no, God seemed more concerned with swearing, golden cows, coveting your neighbors property. God isn't too bright.
And, this mumbo jumbo about defending God's routine and numerous executions of women and children because God could see the offenders had lost their hearts? Who are we, just mortal human beings, to criticize God's mass murders of old people, of women, of babies, because only God can see into their hearts? I truly feel sorry for people that believe in, perhaps love, such a God. The God of the old testament is a sadist. He is cruel to the weak and the helpless and rewards the strong with power and on occasion, virgins. When the bible-beaters find a convenient little verse to justify God's murders, God's cruelty, then everything is right as rain. God could see that the sassy boy had lost his heart. He deserved to die. Let's rejoice for God has slaughtered another innocent.
Man's search for God usually results in Man striving to reach towards God through our good works. A Muslim can not know he will go to paradise unless he dies in a holy war. Otherwise, their good works must outweigh their sins.
In contrast, Jesus Christ paid the price for sin through His suffering and sacrificial death on the cross.
John 3:16-17 For this is the way God loved the world: He gave his one and only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life. 3:17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world should be saved through him.
Basically, I'm being told that we have this god, who sits around for an eternally long number of years, doing who knows what, then one day he goes, "I think I'll make a bunch of people this week."
Then he is such a sicko that he makes these people, knowing that he plans on torturing most of them eternally. They are going to get to live for a few years (the blink of an eye), then he'll get to torture them for trillions and trillions of years. Oh sure, he gives them the chance to come hang out with him, but because he is all-knowing, he already knows that ultimate torture is going to be the result for a large portion of his creations.
Not just killing them, mind you. Torturing them forever and ever. Just because they are misguided as to where they came from. I am vastly morally superior to your god, thank you.
You completely miss the point. It has absolutely nothing to do with free will. All religious fundamentalists miss this point.
Quit looking at it from your viewpoint. Of course it's nice that we have our own free will. No one would give that up. Now look at it from your god's point of view. He supposedly already knows that he will spend all eternity torturing folks. He already knows who they'll be. SO WHY MAKE THOSE GUYS?? Why not just create the people that will go to heaven?
Why would you deliberately create people to torture? He could make people with their own free will who would worship him. Unless you are arguing that god has no control over one's fate, and is in fact not all-knowing.
Your god deliberately created people knowing they would be eternally tortured. That is the most inexcusable, sadistic, evil, immoral concept I can imagine.
87 comments:
Ever wonder about the Great Flood? According to the bible it took place about 4,000 years ago (c. 2000 B.C.), and covered all the mountains on the face of the earth. That would be to a height of approximately 30,000 feet.
The next time you see the white line of a jet contrail passing far overhead, consider the fact that the distant white line you are staring at is probably about that high up. Now that is a lot of rain to get in 40 days!
Mount Ararat is about 16,000 feet high. When the ark touched down there, over 10,000 feet of most Himalayan mountains were already exposed.
Many, if not most, of the stories of the old testament are nothing more than novels, fictional stories using historical events, places, people, written after the fact of a some sort of disaster such as the walls of Jericho falling. An earthquake devastates the city of Jericho then some guy writes a cute story declaring God had a hand in the destruction. The story of the Ark may be similar. After a nasty local flood, some guy writes a bible story, exaggerates a bit (entire world floods) and the next thing you know millions of people blindly accept the story as true, regardless of how silly the science of such a story is.
Modern-day novelists (writers of fictional books) weave their stories around historical events, places and people. Many novels are "life affirming" in one way or another. These books, these stories touch the readers in their hearts and minds, so much more than an Old Testament story about rape of young innocent girls. The only thing the bible has going for it is the hope for a God, the hope for an afterlife, and lest I forget, the threat that if you don't believe, eternal damnation is in your future. Cute.
Just where is heaven, anyway? Thw bible says that is is above the firmamant (a word that biblical scholars refuse to translate). In Sunday School, I was taught that it was up in the sky ("the heavens"). With modern telescopes not finding it, I can only surmise that it must be really, really far away. Like millions of light years. What I want to know is, just exactly where do Christians say that heaven is located? Or can they even answer that without a bunch of mysterious, complex crap?
It doesn't matter where heaven is located. We Christians believe it exists - the Holy Bible describes its existence. Anyone like you guys who claim to have read the Bible know that your faith will deliver you to heaven. You need to stop looking for errors in the Bible and concentrate on the TRUTH that it contains.
What TRUTH would that be? A believer in the "wealth gospel" would think that the more money a person has the more God loves that person? It really doesn't matter how unethical or immoral a person is/was in acquiring wealth, if you have wealth, God favors you! A very convenient TRUTH. Or, if your life is terrible, perhaps a woman living with a cheating, maybe abusive spouse, that her life on Earth is Hell but, if she believes, she'll find respite in the afterlife? Another convenient TRUTH when fellow Christians talk her out of divorcing her jerk of a husband.
You TRUTH seeking Christians talk one story of Jesus' love, then when it is convenient, you reach back into the old testament for another TRUTH, the TRUTH of abuse of power, particular of men over women. You want the Ten Commandments posted in schools and other public institutions, but you're not so keen about posting the punishments (usually death) for disobeying one of the commandments. You celebrate the death of an abortion doctor, but you refuse to stone to death a close relative after you've learned of their adultery. Your TRUTH is a convenient TRUTH.
Revelations 12:7 "And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,"
Heaven sounds like a lovely, lovely place to me.
As far as the flood goes, maybe some one can answer a question I've had for a long time now. When all the water reached a point where it covered the globe, exactly how did the salt-water fish get along with all of those snooty fresh-water fish?
I take it you've never been salt-water fishing. Salt-water fish have lots of big teeth. Even the cuties can take a chunk out of your hand. I'm thinking the snooty fresh-water fish kept their distance or were eaten by their salt-water brethrens.
In Matthew 4:8, Satan takes Jesus to "the highest mountain in the land, from which he can see all the kingdoms on the face of the earth". Since the Bible is inerrant, this would seem to confirm my suspicions that the earth is really flat.
Battle of Jericho, in Joshua 6, archaeological finds
"It was not until a British archaeologist named Kathleen Kenyon reexcavated the site with modern methods in the 1950s that it was understood what these piles of bricks were. She determined that they were from the city wall which had collapsed when the city was destroyed!
Cross-section of the fallen bricks from the wall of Jericho. The story in the Bible goes on to say that when the walls collapsed, the Israelites stormed the city and set it on fire. Archaeologists found evidence for a massive destruction by fire just as the Bible relates. Kenyon wrote in her excavation report,
“The destruction was complete. Walls and floors were blackened or reddened by fire, and every room was filled with fallen bricks, timbers, and household utensils; in most rooms the fallen debris was heavily burnt.”
What caused the strong walls of Jericho to collapse? The most likely explanation is an earthquake. But the nature of the earthquake was unusual. It struck in such a way as to allow a portion of the city wall on the north side of the site to remain standing, while everywhere else the wall fell."
The spies leave Rahab's Jericho wall house.Rahab's house was evidently located on the north side of the city. She was the Canaanite prostitute who hid the Israelite spies who came to reconnoiter the city. The Bible states that her house was built against the city wall. Before returning to the Israelite camp, the spies told Rahab to bring her family into her house and they would be saved. According to the Bible, Rahab's house was miraculously spared while
the rest of the city wall fell."
This was from Biblical Archaeology Review from March/April 1990
Rahab the harlot was an ancestor of Jesus and is in Hebrews 11 "Hall of Faith" chapter, praising Old Testament people for their exhibiting great faith. The article also talks of Italian "diggers" from 1987.
It is in no way unusual for an earthquake to fell some walls and leave others standing. Anyone who has ever witnessed or been involved in an earthquake will attest to this. The fact that one city wall was left standing would only be considered unique by somebody with no knowledge of earthquakes.
There is absolutely no evidence, biblical or otherwise, that Rahab's house was located along this wall. Rather, this "fact" was surmised AFTER the wall was discovered somewhat intact.
All the archaelogical evidence found was an ancient city which had been destroyed. It should be noted that archaeologists have dug up literally hundreds of such towns in the area.
It is interesting that in Joshua 10:12-13, after once again destroying Jericho, God makes the sun "stand still" so that Joshua can get all his killing done before dark.
It is sort of interesting to note that on the first day, God creates light and separates light from darkness, and day from night. Yet he doesn't get around to creating the sun and stars until the fourth day.
So he spends a full day's work making light and as sort of an afterthought, right before he turns in, he makes trillions and trillions of stars.
Anonymous poster from 2/28 @ 5:53pm with positive message on heaven-
Good to have you on board. The comedian W.C. Fields was asked why he was looking over the Bible as he was on his deathbed. His reply, "I'm looking for loopholes."
I agree with you that reflecting on and applying the Bible's truth is time well-spent.
Anonymous from 2/28 on the "Wealth Gospel"
The wealth or prosperity gospel can too easily be dangerously applied. When my focus shifts from God's purpose to my desires, I become the served rather than the servant,in my mind. Bad, bad plan.
Churches now often market Christianity, appealing to certain demographic groups, rather than advancing the Gospel. The Great Commission, Matthew 28:19-20 (NIV) says: "Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I will be with you always, to the very end of the age." A plan that requires dependence on God, sacrifice, and persistence. The result-it turned the world upside down (Acts 17:6).
Why did it take the Israelites 40 years to travel from Egypt to Canaan - a journey of about a week (on foot)?
If the flood in the BIBLE was just a local flood, there would have been no need for an ark. God gave Noah 120 years warning, so he could have simply moved, along with the animals. Plus, he wouldn't have needed an ark that huge. The BIBLE makes it very clear that it was a world-wide event.
The BIBLE states that God forced the Israelites to wander for 40 years, one for every spy they had in Canaan. It has nothing to do with the distance between the two locations. This is a lesson about God's power to punish those who are in disagreement with him.
Note to Diamond Dave -
The Old Testament is assumed to have been originally recorded in Hebrew, with a couple of chapters in Aramaic. Unfortunately, nobody knows where any of this material is, and it wasn't available to scholars whose work we first encounter, who are Greeks around 300 BC.
The New Testament, on the other hand, was originally recorded in Greek after the birth of Christ. The original Greek documents, along with notes, survive.
Even the Dead Sea Scrolls are known to be copies. No original Hebrew or Aramaic works exist. Their versions were all handed down orally.
"You want the Ten Commandments posted in schools and other public institutions"- Post by anonymous 2/28 @5:53pm
The 10 Commandments had been posted in schools (and prayer was allowed) until the 1960's when a combination of Supreme Court rulings outlawed it. The changes that have happened socially and morally in the last 45 years in the U.S. grieves me. The schools seemingly are being used as a laboratory to experiment on children. Learning seems to be secondary.
The Heritage Foundation has "The Index of Leading Cultural Index" which tracks crime, out of wedlock birth, drug usage, etc. much like the government tracks inflation or economic growth. This indicator is up fivefold (has worsened) from back then. There have been many, many changes in this time. To what do you credit for this? I believe the mindset has been turned on upside down, and the 10 Commandment and prayer rulings are indicative of this.
In Tom Brokaw's book on the 1960's ex-president Bill Clinton said, "If you're a Democrat, you probably think the 1960's were a good thing. If you're a Republican, you think it's a bad thing." (my paraphrase) Any thoughts?
The problem I have with putting the ten commandments in those places is that the first four commandments basically keep telling you to worship bow down to this particular God. In lots of places, not all students believe in that particular God, and follow their own. The last six commandments could be posted, and reworded to make better sense to modern citizens. I have no problem with that. I'm sure the church does, though (they are not noted for compromise).
"Any thoughts?"
Yes, I have thoughts on this. I'm going to preface these comments by stating that I have known Diamond Dave for 40 years now, and find him to be an intelligent and loyal friend. You won't find a better person to sit down and discuss issues with. We have had disagreements, and they have never erupted into serious rifts. All the editors here, me especially, enjoy the additions his posts have made to our blog.
That being said, let me introduce you to one of our perennial on-going disagreements. Dave attempts, in his last post, to draw a correlation between the lack of religion in the classroom and society's so-called "moral decay".
He obviously views society in general as having gone drastically downhill since his birth. This is a common misconception. Fundamentalists and other conservatives have made this claim since the dawn of time. My father used to say this. So did his father. I'm guessing his dad did too. Society has evolved over history. In the middle ages, people were imprisoned or put to death for their religious beliefs. Debtors were thrown in prison. Homosexuality and sexual promiscuity were part of the culture, but not spoken of, and those found practicing such activities were ostracized or punished. Drug use was world-wide; cocaine derivatives, morphine, and alcohol were commonly used. Beer was being brewed in massive quantities by the ancient Egyptians. Life was short, hard, and miserable.
The youth of every generation is found lacking by their elders. I am sick and tired of listening to some one in his lazy boy, watching his big screen TV, enjoying his central air-conditioned home tell me just how crappy things are. Modern society has evolved to the point where we now know comfort and luxuries that even our recent ancestors couldn't have imagined or afforded.
We now expect to live to 80 years old or so. In 1900, this number was less than 60. We can expect to recieve the best medical, dental, and optical care. Information is at our fingertips. We can travel around the globe, if we choose to - and in a very short time. We can go visit our friends and family no matter where they live. In short, this is a great time to be living.
Diamond Dave will listen to this information, and largely discard it, instead focusing on the problems our society currently has. He thinks that posting the ten commmandments in classrooms is needed. Yet, I seriously doubt that he has them posted in his own home. In fact, ask the religious right, who agrees with Dave on this, just how many of them post the ten commandments in their children's bedrooms? Those kids spend more time there than in the classroom. If these guys are of the opinion that religion can make a difference in their kids' lives, I'm sure they take them to church. They probably make sure that they attend Sunday school. Are they discussing God with them at home regularly? Just how much religion do you want these kids to have? This is up to the PARENTS.
Parenting is the method that will best achieve the results you want. People should not complain about what is taught in schools without combating it at home. I raised two kids. I can tell you without question that if your kids are not being taught something in the classroom, you should be teaching it at home. Schooling doesn't have to stop when your child leaves the school building. If Diamond Dave thinks our society is completely messed up regarding the way we educate our children, he should become an advocate for supplementing their public education with good, old-fashioned parenting skills.
"Any thoughts?" (continued)
Crime, sex, and debt have been around a long time. Longer than Diamond Dave. If you share Dave's viewpoint, you should stop and consider this: Would you prefer to have lived in 500BC? 1200AD? 1800AD? 1940AD? Of course not. It's like the Canadian healthcare system. Everyone complains about its inadequacies. Ask them if they would like to privatize it again. 99% will emphatically say NO.
People will always complain, find faults, and dwell on problems. Life is what you make of it. Neither society nor our government will collapse in our lifetimes. Or our children's. Other societies have survived a lot longer than us with problems of their own.
Posting the ten commandments in public places as a way of combating society's problems is absurd. Ask the next guy who suggests this if he has them posted in his home. He will say no. Try posting them at home first. Why do you want this stuff posted everywhere but refuse to do it in your own house? As anonymous previously said, the problem with posting the commandments is that they don't all address society's problems. Nearly half of them are nothing more than instructions on how to worship God. You see, you could just post a list of rules to live by, like "no killing" or "no stealing" or "no lying". Dave and his religious brethren would not find that to be good enough. It's not the rules they want posted - it's the worship part.
That is why you can't post them publicly. Different people worship different gods. It's the same story with religious fanatics that we have encountered again and again since the dawn of time. They want everyone to worship THEIR god, so they end up moving or finding somewhere where they can live together, all alike. Unfortunately for them, that is not possible in the US (generally speaking). You must learn to accept other people's beliefs, and respect them.
My advice to Diamond Dave and his followers would be to get out of the 60's. That was 50 years ago.
You make excellent points about parenting and personal responsibility. I agree completely and part of the problem is a "blame culture" that points outward rather than examining itself. It's more socially acceptable to rant about society than to mumble depressingly about your past indiscretions and mistakes. That's probably a good thing, though.
I'd be OK with listing 6 of the 10 Commandments. Those address issues of hating, stealing, gossipping and honesty.
William Bennett in 1993 WSJ article "Quantifying America's Decline" talked of 560% increase in violent crime, 419% + in illegitimate births, quadrupling of the divorce rates, tripling of children in sinle family homes, an increase in teen suicide and SAT scores are down 80 points.
Perhaps more than anything else, America's cultural decline is evidence of a shift in the public's attitudes and beliefs. Social scientist James Q. Wilson writes that ``the powers exercised by the institutions of social control have been constrained and people, especially young people, have embraced an ethos that values self-expression over self-control.'' The findings of pollster David Yankelovich seem to confirm this diagnosis. Our society now places less value than before on what we owe to others as a matter of moral obligation; less value on sacrifice as a moral good; less values on social conformity and respectability; and less value on correctness and restraint in matters of physical pleasure and sexuality.
Some writers have spoken eloquently on these matters. When the late Walker Percy was asked what concerned him most about America's future he answered: ``Probably the fear of seeing America with all its great strength and beauty and freedom...gradually subside into decay through default and be defeated, not by the Communist movement demonstrably a bankrupt system but from within by weariness boredom cynicism greed and in the end helplessness before its great problems.'' Alexander Solzhenitsyn in a speech earlier this year put it this way: ``The West...has been undergoing an erosion and obscuring of high moral and ethical ideals. The spiritual axis of life has grown dim.'' John Updike has written: ``The fact that compared to the inhabitants of Africa and Russia, we still live well cannot ease the pain of feeling we no longer live nobly.''
I've heard of Plato or some Greek from 2300+years ago ranting about the terrible youth of that time. Do you think there is a problem?
My question in the middle of my last post "to what do you credit this?" What has turned our society this direction?
I, personally, see nothing wrong with remaining in the 60's.
I will shrink back to the nether regions having once again having been bested by my superior, the esteemed Stonehead.
He probably has an impressive resume. Hmmm. How does Senator Stonehead sound?
Let's talk about the role of women in society. Many churches will not allow them to minister. They are not allowed in the priesthood (paving the way for its take-over by homosexuals). Why is this?
I am not finding anything in the bible directing this exclusion of women. I find massive references to women being treated inferior, but nothing specific. What gives?
In Genesis 7:8, Noah takes two of every creature onto the ark (all in one day, no less). A few verses later, he takes seven of each creature on the ark. Just which is it, anyway?
Anonymous- in Genesis 7:2(NIV) "Take with you 7 of every kind of CLEAN(according to the kosher dietary laws, these could be eaten) animals, a male and its mate, & 2 of every kind of unclean animal(not to be eaten) a male and its mate."
Rick- 1 Timothy 2:12 (NIV)-"I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent." Indicates no.
Joel 2:28 and Acts 2:17-18 indicates prophesy (I think) in the last days by all people-woman included. Indicates yes to some extent. Sorry for the fence riding.
This is a recurrent theme you'll find in the bible. The verse Diamond Dave uses to justify not allowing women into the ministry is quite clear. "Do not permit a woman to teach or have authority over a man".
Diamond Dave has fallen into my trap. That verse makes it very clear that women should not be teachers, supervisors, trainers, counselors, executives, professors, authors, committee leaders, legislators, judges, jurists, jailers, managers, loan officers, policemen, landlords, lecturers, tutors, coaches, rangers, officers, detectives, bouncers, security guards, government agents, administrators, superintendants, principals, directors, engineers, foremen, air traffic controllers, instructors, ministers, priests, case officers, business representatives, referees, officials, producers, sea captains, lieutenants, assistant managers, department heads, financial advisors, regulators, rabbis, bailiffs, magistrates, small business owners, shop stewards, large business owners, boardmembers, councilmen, commissioners, navigators, well, you get the idea. The bible clearly states that women cannot teach men, or have any kind of authority over men.
People like Diamond Dave twist the meaning of this passage until it resembles a pretzel. They make exceptions for basically anything that they find convenient or necessary. Whatever they're comfortable with is OK. However, the things that make them uncomfortable, they won't allow. Like no pastors. The bible doesn't have a verse that says "women are not allowed to teach the word of God". The only verse Dave gives us says that women can't teach ANYTHING.
Obviously, neither Dave nor his ilk are following those guidelines. The bible says women should remain silent. They are not to speak unless spoken to. That is why it was difficult for them to be heard - even if they were reporting being raped. Back then, their word was insignificant. They would need witnesses, or the charges would be denied, the woman ostracized, her life ruined, and the accused freed.
It seems to me very hypocritical to bar women from preaching based on verses like that, yet allow them to be the voice of authority in so many other places.
14 These things write I unto thee, hoping to come unto thee shortly: 15 But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.
Deuteronomy 25:11-12 -
"If two men are struggling together, and the wife of one comes near to deliver her husband from the hand of the one who is striking him, and puts out her hand and seizes his genitals, then you shall cut off her hand; you shall not show pity."
Women ministers
What I took from the Bible and posted indicated it could be looked at more than one way. The church I am currently a member of allows and has had women pastors. There are times it has been a very controversial issue in the church, more so in the recent past. It is not a critical issue to me.
Rick and I have both been a member of a denomination that did not allow women preachers.
I found an interesting web-site, http://www.themonkeytrial.com/ about the Scopes monkey trial of 1925. It contrasts the play and movie "Inherit the Wind" with what actually happened. Judges and schools have used the movie as a reference for what happened.
Remember Johnny Cash's song "A Boy named Sue"? They think that was the Dayton, TN city attorney, Sue Hicks, who arrested and prosecuted Scopes.
You know why "they" think it was Sue Hicks? Because those are the only two guys that were ever named Sue. Only reason. If the attorney had been named "Bob", no one would have made any connection.
Deuteronomy 23:1 -
"No one whose testicles are crushed or whose male organ is cut off shall enter the assembly of the Lord."
"And behold I have given you every herb bearing seed ... to you it shall be as meat:.
Genesis 1:29
Take that, Pat Robertson.
Ever watch when they show young people, or children, after they've been removed from a cult? They will just mindlessly parrot whatever has been drilled into their heads for the past several years.
I find a parallel to this when I hear people tell me how the bible is the "holy word of God". Surely these guys have the mental capacity to see that the only proof there is of that is in the bible itself. That's right - the bible says that the bible is holy and inerrant. These folks would never believe any other book if it were to be the only source of its claims.
That would be like you guys saying that Jefferson Iowa News was inerrant. How would I know if that was true or not? Because JIN said so, of course.
It is tremendous proof of what long-term relentless brainwashing can do, especially when begun at a young age. The fact that adults still parrot this statement as fact with no corroborating proof whatsoever sounds exactly like the kids I mentioned at the beginning of this post.
God will hold animals accountable for their behavior, too, come judgement day!
Genesis 9:5 "I will demand an accounting from every animal. And from each man, too."
Back to the issue of cultural decline. Decline from what? Can't you see that when discussing cultural decline you are by and large referring to morality?
When speaking of morality, the decline that you suggest we are in is basically relative. Relative to your own personal moral code. You quickly rattle off single-parent homes, teen pregnancy, illegitimate births, and divorce rates as signs of cultural decline. I submit that, for the most part, what you see here is nothing more than moralizing.
Perhaps you would prefer we regress back to Victorian times. Believe me, between 1890 and 1930, things went downhill morally if you consider the West's disenchantment with rigid Victorian socially accepted behavior that took place over that period.
How about instead, we select a different reference point? Maybe between 1920 and 1960? During that period, we saw prohibition removed, marijuana use introduced, rock and roll music, rises in divorce rates, and the beginning of birth control.
Cultural decline is in your own mind, that is all. When you see people doing things you don't approve of, you will naturally find them morally incorrect. Society by definition will never be perfect; it will always have evolving standards. You can get on the bus, or stay at home and watch.
On this topic of posting the ten commandments in schools -
Diamond Dave is on record saying that he doesn't necessarily mean all ten commandments - he would be OK with only the last 6 posted (dropping the first four which are instructions on worship).
To the casual reader, this sounds just fine. After all, the final six commandments simply give directions such as "don't lie, steal, cheat, or kill". But guess what? Dave needs to look around. Those things are already posted in some form or other in every school in America! I'll take you there and show you! Hy-Vee, for example, hires lots of kids. Guess what is posted in every Hy-Vee breakroom? Right! Qualities they expect young adults to practice. Things like integrity, honesty, and respect.
The problem I keep trying to drive home on this issue is that none of these postings seem to be working (according to Diamond Dave). Anyone who thinks rewording them and adding religious overtones would make a difference has his head in the sand. The difference needs to come from HOME.
As I said before, try posting the commandments in your own home before putting them up in everybody else's.
A good example of the bible's opinion of women, as opposed to men, is best summed up in Leviticus 12:1-8. These verses explain the procedure one is to follow after childbirth.
After giving birth to a son, she is basically ostracised for seven days, after which she is to remain untouched for 33 days, for she is considered unclean. If she gives birth to a daughter, on the other hand, the entire period of uncleanliness is doubled to 14 and 66 days, respectively.
In Genesis 2:17, God tells Adam that if he eats from the forbidden fruit, he will die the same day.
"But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shall not eat of it; for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die."
Adam lived to be 930 years old.
There are also literally hundreds of bible verses that contradict themselves with regard to ancestral records. When you go through these, you come away knowing that the bible cannot be used to develop timelines, or family lineages. I know the Old Testament is filled with them, but that doesn't mean they are accurate.
For example, in Exodus 3:1, we learn that Jethro is the father-in-law of Moses. Fine. Unfortunately, in Numbers 10:29, we find Hobab is the father-in-law of Moses.
I know this is just one error. But trust me, they're everywhere. I'll be happy to print a few more on request. So before you decide to count begats backward and decide how old the earth is, please realize that these records are mostly from memory of events which took place hundreds of years before the bible was written.
I find it kind of weird that the serpent in Genesis 3:1-5 apparently is able to speak in Hebrew (I guess). This animal talks but I don't understand why none of the others do. And what are the odds that they speak the same language?
Don't write in and say that everyone spoke the same language before the tower of babel. In Genesis 10:5,20, and 31, the bible refers to people speaking different languages.
The role of woman and the Bible
I believe the most damaging practice towards women in ancient times was polygamy. It was worldwide, like slavery. It's still practiced in 1/3 of the world. Osama bin Laden's father had over 50 sons. How many wives? I don't know. I can think or few (then) "mainstream" customs as demeaning as being 10th wife out of 10. King David and Solomon were prime examples of this. David's family was a tragedy, rife with rape, incest, murder and treason. Polygamy waned following then. By the time of Jesus it had stopped, without a command from God.
An Arabic tome would NEVER, not now, not then, have listed the passage in Proverbs 31 about the virtuous woman. Check out the tasks and responsibilities in 1000B.C. that she undertook!
Women's place had obviously improved markedly during Jesus time. Martha sat at his feet while he taught. He put the men who brought the woman caught in adultery in their place. He pardoned her and told her to go and sin no more. he spoke to the outcast woman at the well, who had been married 5 or 6 times. Women discovered Jesus' resurrection and the empty tomb. The Love Chapter, 1 Corinthians 13, fits perfectly in the context of the New Testament.
Ephesians 5:25-27 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself up for her; 26 that He might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, 27 that He might present to Himself the church in all her glory, having no spot or wrinkle or any such thing; but that she should be holy and blameless.
The bloggers here cite an epidemic of women's cultural abuse in the Bible. I contend that the role and treatment of women in 1940 was closer to 900 B.C. or 30 A.D. than to 2010. I believe it was less than 100 years ago that woman got the vote in a country of any size in the world. WW II brought women into the workforce en masse.
The birth control pill was invented about 1960. In 1950"girls just want to have fun" in that way was ludicrous, bcz of the price that would be paid. Although Phyllis Schlafly single-handedly turned back the Equal Rights Amendment for women in the late 1970's, there has been a legal avalanche in Christendom (Europe and much of the old British Empire) benefiting women. It's been in the last few years there are more women entering law and medical school than men in the U.S.
Yet, in most of the world, women's roles are still closer to 1500 B.C. than 2010 in what was called Christendom. Explain why that is, please.
If we were pre-1972 USA state of women(before NY Rep. Shirley Chisholm ran for the Democratic nomination for President) we wouldn't have the joys of discussing ex Gov. Palin's quick rise with so little going for her.
Al Gore is predicting a global warming for women's receptivity to Jefferson Iowa News. He's concerned about the tone, but believes with the proper care and nurturing (and massive federal aid) we can progress to a post Neanderthal, pre Cro-Magnon state. He expects numerous speaking engagements and a modest monthly stipend in return. He is hoping to export this model to Buddhist and Hundu cultures worldwide, with the eventual goal of invading, umm, influencing Tehran and their sort. Global warming is freezing over and a new business model must be explored.
Iona Trailer, what say you about JIN and its general worldview, attitude and treatment of women? Better than the Old Testament, New Testament, Islam or ex-President Bill Clinton, none of the above or all of the above? It's OK to answer anonymously, but please post (it's me) at the end of your diatribe, rant, cry for help or earnest plea for a scintilla of repect and/or dignity.
How do we get women to post on this thread?!
Through thorough assembling of demographic data on the denizens of this dialog driven website, and Big Nasty's constant cries of "I am not a maam!", with lab results confirming Mr. Nasty's screams, he is, in fact, NOT a Sheila but is a Shamus. Much to our chagrin, "Nasty" is in fact a raging roid ranger with testosterone counts triple that of the average poster (the myriad Anonymous's caved the level to make B. Nasty appear an exceptionally manly man). Sanctions were considered, but he's the only one above the mean on the testosterone count, so Rick and Tars (Marty, you owe me big time for not including you w/this sordid, diabolic duo, so you have some krugerrands, eh?) squealed like mincing schoolgirls pleading pitifully for him to stay on and inspire the rest of us. Oh yes, modern science, led by JIN's own Vince Hawking, and under Tars' watchful eye, will be doing a massive 10 year stimulus funded study on Nasty, to find how he "swam uphill" w/his Testosterone counts actually increasing. Thus heroically fighting the debilitating, near crippling, emasculating effects Sly Stallone and all other supposed masculine abusers of performance enhancing drugs, willingly endure. By the way Big, it paid off with your near bronze in curling in Vancouver, reclaiming Jefferson's Olympic presence and favor not seen since the glory days of Doreen Wilber and Jackie Fie. How dare they say curling is a team sport. You rule! But, once again, I digress(about as much as usual).
Iona Trailer, the "Lone Stranger" posting of the female persuasion, a resident of growth drunk, welcoming, friendly Granger, is courageously taking on Jtown as a stray pet desperately needing her nurture, assistance and acumen. With the Chamber's promised unsigned, inducement of a telethon pledge funded 4.125% (it is a muni after all)30 year triple exempt toxic, DDD rated municipal bond of $17.44, at her side, she is championing Jefferson's cause back to normal Iowa rural economic health. Iona, is much too refined a lady to stoop to reading the putrid pablum passed on this post/thread, is busy beyond belief with this bulging, burden to bear.
How can we shame/dupe/fool/cajole/ convince/encourage/reward Ms. Trailer to fulfill us with her feminine, fragranced, fresh findings and insights about women's advances since Deuteronomy, chastity belts and the flappers of speakeasy times? She's the only dance hall gal from around these parts who will talk to us, 'cept for that Alaskan moose gutter, and we're fascinated/scared spitless of her.
The Sarah Palin, religion-based driven animus between Rick Bland and me resulted in an epic, long anticipated donnybrook.
The promoter, one head shaved ShaftNasty... (shut your mouth!) found a dungeon in Woodward and coerced Tars Tarkus, a renowned L.A. boxing referee, to officiate.
Rick's hair pulling dominated the early rounds. Rick pummelled Diamond to the melodic "Folsom Prison Blues" (yes, I WAS once a young man...) rendition from the musical stylings of Dana Kirby on bass, Marty Bryant, lead singer and Cheshire Cat juggler extraordinaire teamed with Rich, a feline-allergic-cat-dodger on the trombones. Monty Larson, famed vampire hunter, was unfortunately unavailable to set a discernible tempo. Braxton phoned in that it was 85 and sunny in Arizona. Tars' near deal-breaker was insisting on the musical illiterate, Tony Kendall, on lead guitar. Tars said he was going to walk, Rick explained the geographic consequences and colder heads (Ted Williams, actually) prevailed. Tony exceeded even himself. Meanwhile, Commissioner Copeland is expected to rule on Tony's presence before the 2016 Summer Olympics... maybe. A plethora of interviews over this controversy is delaying this crucial ruling.
Rick was yelling something about Palin, part of the Monty Python comedic troupe, or Padin, the long underwear wearing pseudo-cowboy in Silverado. Diamond urged him to enunciate properly to no avail.
Diamond was aided by his handlers at the end of each round by crashing him end over end to the corner. After smelling salts were slammed into his nasal cavity, like so many M&M's, Diamond courageously stood upright to answer the bell before the 7th round, while DWTS destined Rick tripped over his dainty feet. Diamond ripped off his gloves and thumped Rick in the forehead repeatedly , much like the chinese water torture of his childhood, only to the rhythm of Neil Diamond's (no relation, but he made a great cantor in the updated "Jazz Singer")"Coming to America".
The crowd- 4 guys named Anonymous in trenchcoats who paid a buck, seemed strangely melancholy after the Folsom song, but mutely applauded uproariously, after the patriotic Neil (no relation) Diamond set. The ace JIN court side reporter, Mike and Phil (2 heads are better than one)discovered, after much sign language and 6 pads of paper, that Anonymous's brothers are the most famous trio of Vermonters ever, Larry, Darrell and his other brother Virile. Surprisingly enuf, Virile was the only one to father children (human, that is) and he had 7,217 after his gut-wrenching, near family destroying pilgrimage to Salt Lake City. Virile proudly supports 3 of his offspring. The federal government is pleased to supply the stability so necessary for this close-knit "village."
There is no reliable account of the fight's result. No rematch was begged for by both parties. Buford T., Sherlockianly uncovered on genealogy.com, massive interrelated connections between other underground, local and national nefarious fighting federations with those involved with this fight. Commissioner Copeland will help Buford to ensure the findings proceed quickly to the proper int'l. authorities. SPECTRE, a natural co-conspirator in this dastardly plot, is currently being bombarded with faxes and emails asking the nature of their business and associations and if they have any available, attractive women of proper social stature, (5'6 to 5'10preferred, which got hopelessly muddled bcz of the confounded intricacies of the evil metric system) yearning for hearth and home w/strong shouldered lawn mowing types getting first crack.
Multiple car problems after the bout found Shorty unavailable bcz of a daily brief 1/2 hour respite. Unknown tow trucks and law enforcement eventually, mercifully assisted those in need. Iona Trailer, altho nearby in suburban Granger, was frantically attempting to save the metropolis once remembered as Jefferson, surviving brutal 400 hour weeks, & thus had to decline appearing as the between rounds glamour gal for those who couldn't count. She has diligently discovered available federal stimulus money where billable hours over 32 are 2x time.
The last thing I recall was Rip van Winkle singing "Waking Up Is Hard To Do" sounding like a more nasal, posthomous Neil Sedaka.
If Marty Bryant(any relation to Anita of orange juice fame?)had time, I know a to the point WTF TTS(what's that fellow, trying to say) post would immediately follow this. ShaftNasty, currently incommunicado, exhausted from the boxing promoter's grind, and from dodging Don King's brillo-headed bullets, will talk to the hand for me on this one.
Sorry! I meant to post this 2 part tome on the "Open Discusasion" thread
Diamond Dave - Double WTF?
I guess I'll comment. On second thought, seeing how you guys are all throwing bible verses back and forth, it would be easier to just let the bible speak for itself. After reading these verses, you tell me how the Israelites treated their women.
Leviticus 21:9 - "And the daughter of any priest, if she profane herself by playing the whore, she shall be burnt with fire."
This means that if a priest's daughter loses her virginity outside of marriage, she must be burned at the stake. Wonder what happens to the guy?
Corinthians 11:8-9 - "The man was not created for the woman, but the woman for the man."
The bible's decree of male supremacy has kept women inferior to men for centuries.
Deuteronomy 22:13-21 - These verses are a little long, but what they say is that if a man lies with a woman, the girl's father must provide proof of her virginity in order to make the man pay her family (father) 100 shekels, and not return her (as she is now unwanted). But if the bride's virginity does not satisfy the requirements, then the man can get rid of her by letting people from the city stone her to death. Cute.
Ephesians 5:22-24 - "Wives, submit yourselves unto your husbands ... in everything."
These words of Paul (New Testament) include "everything" which most women rightly agree includes rape, beating, slavery, etc.
Corinthians 14:34-35 - "Let your women keep silent, and if they learn anything, let it be from their husband at home."
Again, if any one wants to find out why women are treated inferior to men, one only needs to look in the bible.
Hosea 13:16 - In theses verses, God is angry with a nearby village, so he commands the Israelites to "dash all the infants to pieces" and "rip apart all the pregnant women". He speaks of no punishment for the men or boys.
I hardly think that it speaks to the improved state of a woman's lot when she is allowed to "sit at the feet" of a man. This Diamond Dave sounds like he seriously believes that men should be superior to women. That's why he doesn't think women had it so bad. It just doesn't sound that bad to him - that's the way he really views things.
I am not sure Diamond Dave understands just how bad women had it, throughout the bible. They were treated as possesions in the Middle East all through history, regardless of their religion. That is why fathers were paid if their daughters were found to have had sex. No longer a virgin, their value was greatly diminished. As a possesion, they wanted to be reimbursed.
The statement that the role of women in 1940 was closer to that in 900BC than now displays a massive lack of knowledge on the subject. In 900BC, if you were a woman, you were not allowed to voice your opinion, wear whatever you wanted, hold public office, have a job, file for divorce (file for anything), disagree with your spouse (often even select your spouse), go to school, attend public events (without your husband), learn to read or write, own property, be heir to your husband's property, borrow money, vote, etc.
Furthermore, you generally were made to live apart from your family during your menstrual cycle, and for a time after childbirth. You were expected to address your husband as "master", and do as he commanded. Laws were written to exclusively protect men, and women had virtually no recourse in disputes with their hubands, even if they involved physical altercations. In cases of rape, eyewitnesses were required as proof that the act was not consensual.
The bible has always been one of the main reasons women have been treated poorly. Throughout history, when people looked to the bible for answers, they found passages that were written placing women in a subservient role, and they adopted that mindset. Diamond Dave thinks that somehow the New Testament changed everything. How else could anyone possibly compare women's roles in society in 900BC and 1940AD and conclude they were more nearly the same than in the past 70 years? Does he really think his grandmother was treated that badly?
It looks to me like he doesn't really appreciate what it would be like to be simply a posession of another person, to be used and/or discarded at will, to be deliberately kept ignorant, and be given no voice in your own life.
Just another example of why the bible should be read more carefully. Some lessons can be learned from it by not repeating the mistakes it records during the time period in which it was written. We simply cannot pattern our lives after those in ancient times.
Just a note about Proverbs 31, the passage Dave refers to when speaking of how women are treated in the bible. Proverbs 31 spends 30 or so verses basically describing how valuable a good wife is. While Dave finds these passages proof of the bible's fair treatment of women, modern females are greatly distressed by them.
In these verses, wives are described as "valuable" because they perform so many tasks required by her family. She cooks, sews, cleans, etc. Modern women have ambitions beyond mundane household tasks. Most modern men have no problem with this. My guess is that Diamond Dave does. At no place in the bible will you find similar praise for women who perform tasks associated more with men.
Also, Dave points out that polygamy is currently practiced in 1/3 of the world. However, he slips in the note (in the same paragraph), that polygamy waned by the time Christ arrived. Once again, he is trying to have things both ways. I'm sure he will argue that he was referring to Christians only.
The problem is, many other cultures were still following the bible. The passages that seemed to approve of polygamy were still there, in black and white, for other religions to read and interpret. The Mormons still do it today in some places. You can't just say that the bible allowed it, then things changed and it was no longer acceptable. Once you get thing like that wrong the first time (for a few thousand years), it's tough to just write a correction.
By and large, however, there was no discenable difference in attitudes toward women from one religion to anotheruntil very recently in man's history.
I apologize for my senseless supposed stories of 3/8. I was manic and the filters we normally have to prevent us from going "Thelma and Louise" were obviously not working that day. To anonymous posters in particular, sorry for the repeated jabs. These posts shows the benefits of anonymity.
Again, I'm sorry for those posts.
Everywhere these Hebrews go, they keep running into giants. There's races og giants all over the place - even after the flood. I don't see how Noah's family could have produced these giants through incestiary relationships. People who believe in giants are idiots.
In Exodus, the Israelite population went from 70 or so to several million in a few hundred years (1:5-7, 12:37, 38:26).
This is not possible. No amount of extrapolating gets you to these numbers. The entire population of Israel in Jesus' time was almost certainly less than 10,000. Yet the bible continually has them fighting battles with over a million warriors.
A few thoughts I've had over the years:
Why are people born with disabilities? Because God wants them to be, that's why.
In the Old Testament, God is always striking people with leprosy. He wants them to suffer a long, miserable death.
In Numbers 23:22 and 24:8, God has "the strength of a unicorn". It seems tha unicorns are not just ordinary horses. They have some kind of magical powers.
In Kings 1:39-40, when Solomon was annointed king, the people rejoiced so loudly that it caused an earthquake. There is no way that noise causes veartquakes, I'm sorry.
I've done some research on this whole "speaking in tongues" thing. It appears obvious to me (many biblical researchers agree) that the word "tongues" is repeatedly used in the bible in the place of "languages".
A perfect example is Acts 1:4-8. Christ's followers are gathered in a building, and the spirit of the Lord descends upon them. They experience the miracle of being able to speak in other languages. That doesn't at first appear to be that big of a deal; lots of people today can do that. But, 2,000 years ago it was a big deal. When this occurred, people in the street heard all the foreign languages being spoken, and Christ's followers were thus suddenly able to communicate with them, allowing them to convert them to Christianity.
The ability to speak in tongues (read:foreign languages) was a miraculous way of gaining new converts into the church who would otherwise have been left out.
Speaking in tongues was viewed as a miracle back then. At the Tower of Babel, God performed the miracle of granting everyone present the ability to speak in foreign tongues. None of this is considered miraculous today. Some churches read the word miracle and assume that what was a miracle back then must still be a miracle today. That leads them to conclude that there must be more to it than just speaking other languages. That is simply not the case.
This also explains the "miracle" of interpreters. Interpreters are nothing more than they are today. They translate foreign languages into a native "tongue".
People do not talk in tongues. First of all, God doesn't talk. These people are not divine; they do not possess a unique connection with the Holy Spirit. If anything they are schizophrenic. They need medication.
The people doing this are seeking attention. They have a need for attention even at the price of diverting everyone else's attention away from worshipping God to watching them. Only the most gullible of Christ's followers fail to see this.
Why doesn't anyone bring up the fact that Sarah Palin believes in faith healing and speaking in tongues? The vast majority of voters see through these obvious scams. When these facts come out, her candidacy will be DOA.
While governor, Palin asked the entire state to pray for the new Alaskan pipeline to be built. She apparently believes that the "end times" are nearing, and environmental issues are thus unimportant.
She has also called for intelligent design (creationism) to be taught in all public schools.
"Glossolalia". I made the Mexicans at my favorite Perry bar say it five times really fast. It was hilarious.
Here's a nice old bible story you can tell your children tonight before they go to bed. Get the bible out, and turn to Judges, 19:22-30.
A man and his girlfriend are walking the streets, looking for a place to spend the night. They finally find a man kind enough to let them stay. However, later that night a group of men show up at the door and demand to see the guest and have sex with him. The owner, who is unwilling to allow his male lodger to be raped, offers up his virgin gaughter instead. This still isn't good enough, though, so the man offers up his guest's girlfriend, and the men accept. They brutally rape the woman, and leave her on the doorstep, where she bleeds to death. When she is found by her husband, he is furious with her and chops her up into twelve pieces, which he sends to each of the twelve tribes of Israel. No word on their reactions to the gifts.
The status of women in the Bible is not complicated at all. It can easily be summed up in one verse - Ephesians 5:22.
"Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord".
What part of that do you not understand?
Anonymous said "No word on their reactions to the gifts."
Read Judges 20 and 21 for the reaction. Tens of thousands are killed, including all women and children of the Benjamites (a tribe of Israel). In order to replenish the Benjamites, God commands the Israelites to go to Jabesh Gilead (for they had failed to assemble before the Lord) and slaughter all males (which includes infants) and women who were not virgins. The virgins were to be used as breeding stock for the Benjamites.
Of course, their numbers were not enough, so God commanded that the Benjamite men go and kidnap the virgin girls of Shiloh to increase their breeding stock of females.
In Judges 19, the term concubine doesn't mean girlfriend but rather a secondary wife, usually of inferior rank to the primary wife. In those days, who knows, she may have been wife number 18.
In the Old Testament, God is a blood-thirsty mass murderer. God particularly enjoys killing women (non-virgins) and children (boys, and girls that probably aren't old enough to lay with).
In strict Sharia-law countries even today, stoning is the penalty one pays for committing adultery (four eyewitnesses are required to state that they saw the parties sexually interact). However, according to Sharia, the correct thing to do is not tell anybody and repent to Allah.
Husbands can launch charges against their wives with no evidence but their own, and can take an oath four times to meet the requirement of having four witnesses.
In June of 2009, Iran decided to stop stoning people, and took that punishment off the books. In Taliban-led areas, it is still practiced.
In Somalia, in October of 2008, a 13-year-old girl was gang-raped by three men. Following Sharia law, she was found guilty of having sex out of wedlock. She was then buried up to her neck at a football stadium, and stoned to death in front of a crowd of 1,000 spectators.
In Deuteronomy 21, stoning is stated to be the punishment for those who rebel against their parents.
Ezekial is a sort of fun book to read. Ezekial sees UFOs, for instance. Check out Ezekial 38:8 - In this verse God makes the sun move backwards for a while. A good example of a verse you probably won't hear about in church.
The Perry Mexicans that I mentioned earlier have formed a band named Glossolalia. All they do is speak in tongues. They play all night long and still can't get laid.
In case anyone is still reading this thread, I'd like to clarify a few things on "speaking in tongues". As a Christian, I believe in the power of speaking in tongues, BUT - in recent years some otherwise devout Christians are seriously misinterpreting the meaning of this great gift. The Holy Spirit bestowed this gift on his followers at the first Pentecost, and still does today - occasionally. The Bible clearly does not state that ALL who have the Holy Spirit will have this gift. Read 1Corinthians 12:27-31. Churches who teach otherwise have been sidetracked. For instance:
1Corinthians 14:22 plainly states that speaking in tongues "is not a sign for those that believe, but for those that do not believe". Speaking in tongues was/is a miracle God has intended as a way of reaching people who need to be saved. I have personally attended services in churches where virtually the entire congregation was speaking in tongues. When this is happening in churches, this is NOT of God Almighty. This is exactly the type of behavior that misguided souls will be practicing in the end times.
You cannot say that ALL Christians have the gift of tongues any more than you can say they ALL have the gift of healing, prophecy, teaching, or anything else. God has said that the Holy Spirit divides these gifts up as he sees fit (1Corinthians 12:11).
Furthermore, the gift of tongues as presented by the Holy Spirit is much more valuable than merely talking gibberish and having somebody interpret it. Many reports from our overseas missionaries come back stating that even though our pastor was preaching the word in English, the crowd of Swaheeli, et. al. stated they understood him to be speaking perfectly in their native tongue. If you were to witness this on more than one occasion, as I have, it would dawn on you what the true meaning of this great gift is. Many, many people have been saved by it, and nobody is saved by speaking misguided gibberish to each other when tongues are not needed.
At the first Pentecost, even though the Apostles were all speaking Galilean, people from many regions ALL heard them speaking to them in their native tongue! That, my friend, is the true meaning of speaking in tongues. This, my friend, is TONGUES. Not the gibberish you see in churches. Tongues is a REAL language given by the Almighty so as to break the language barrier for the proclamation of the Gospel.
And what happens when some one miraculously speaks in people's native language before their very eyes? PEOPLE ARE SAVED! When a man walks into a church and everyone is speaking gibberish, what does he do? He leaves! 1Corinthians 14-23 confirms it!
1Corinthians chapter 14 - "except ye utter by the tongue WORDS EASILY UNDERSTOOD, how shall it be known what is spoken? For ye shall speak into the air."
What is being spoken in churches today is gibberish and demonic.
Anonymous said "Many reports from our overseas missionaries come back stating that even though our pastor was preaching the word in English, the crowd of Swaheeli, et. al. stated they understood him to be speaking perfectly in their native tongue. If you were to witness this on more than one occasion, as I have, it would dawn on you what the true meaning of this great gift is."
Of course, this is impossible to document other than taking someone's word for it. How about a quiz after one of these miracles of the Holy Spirit (assuming the people aren't bilingual)?
A crowd of native Swaheeli "bilingual"?
Many an African understands english well enough to send email scams to gullible Americans.
Are there scientific errors in the Bible? The examination of some verses would seem to indicate that there are. In Joshua 10:12, "The sun stood still in the midst of the heavens".
In this verse, God makes the sun stand still. But today we know that the sun always stands still. So there you have it. Does the sun move around the earth or not? You can't have it both ways. Today, Christians and Jews are somewhat embarrassed by these passages, and try to ignore them.
The mistake in the narrative is based on the assumption that the earth is flat. There are literally hundreds of bible passages that refer to a flat earth. The reader must ask himself if he is prepared to believe these passages and/or defend them. If you don't believe that the sun moves around the earth, then the bible has scientific errors.
Check out some of these Old Testament "laws":
1. If a man is found to be a homosexual, he must be killed. (Lev. 20:13)
2. Don't wear clothes made of more than one fabric. (Lev. 19:19)
3. Don't cut your hair or shave (Lev. 19:27)
4. Anyone who curses his mother or father must be killed. (Lev. 20:9)
5. If a man cheats on his wife, they both must die. (Lev. 20:10)
6. If a man sleeps with his mom, they both must die. (Lev. 20:11)
7. If a man sleeps with his mom AND his wife, they are all burnt to death. (Lev. 20:14)
8. If a man has sex with an animal, they must both be killed. (Lev. 20:15-16)
9. Psychics and wizards are to be stoned to death. (Lev. 20:27)
10. Anyone who blasphemes God must be stoned to death.
Death seems to be the preferred punishment in the Old Testament.
The Bible is full of ritual sacrifices, but your minister probably doesn't bring up the ritual HUMAN sacrifices that you find there. You'll God accepting human sacrifices in Judges 11:29-40 (Jephthah sacrifices his virgin daughter to the Lord in exchange for a victory in battle), Joshua 7:15 (human sacrifices commanded by God), 1 Kings 13:1-2 (pagan kings are burnt as offerings), etc.
There is no sense in any of this. Just like the tale of God demanding Abraham sacrifice his son Isaac and then, at the last minute, stopping him. This is not a story of God's love - just pure unadulterated evil.
Why are there no religious fundamentalists in the Democratic party?
Just a few Bible verses for those of you to ponder who may agree with Diamond Dave that women's roles at the time of Christ were not tremendously different than they were in the 19th century.
Exodus 21:7-11:
"When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as men are. If he takes her as one of his wives, he may not reduce her food or clothing."
Zechariah 14:1-2:
(Quoting the Lord)"There shall come a day when I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem for battle, the city shall be taken, houses plundered, women ravished, and everyone else removed."
Judges 5:30:
"They must be dividing the spoils they took: there must be a damsel or two for eacdh man."
Deuteronomy 21:10-14:
"When in war, the Lord, your God, delivers captive enemies into your hand, if you see a comely woman among them, you may take her home and have her for your wife."
2 Samuel 12:11-14:
These are poorly written verses and hard to understand, but the meaning seems to be that God brings innocent rape victims to the rapists, forces them to have sex publicly in broad daylight, then kills the infant when it is born. So much for abortion.
Deuteronomy 22:28-29:
"If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman, he must then marry her."
In the Bible, women are constantly being sold for 50 sheckles, or traded for asses, etc. They are instructed to remain silent and cover themselves in public. They are not merely treated as possessions; they ARE possessions. They are punished for speaking to other men, or evenm speaking period. They are forcibly raped, enslaved, and kept free of all learning and education. They are virtually unprotected by the law.
By the time the 19th century rolled around, women were voting in lots of places. They were protected by law from rape, slavery, and disrespect. Women had become key members of the family, not just one of many wives or goats. They were educated, and, indeed, often teachers. They were landowners, and taxpayers.
Comparing women between these two eras displays a complete void of knowledge on the subject of women.
Thank you for giving me more than the benefit of the doubt with your19th century mention of when women's roles were more like Bible times than 2010. My brother who is more Biblically knowledgeable, would have said 30AD (omitting my 900BC claim-I was wrong that Hebrew polygamy ceased then. It also takes care of much of the OT law, slavery, and war-rape and pillage Bible verses that have dominated this thread) compared to 1880, more than a generation before women's suffrage ocurred in Christendom and the developed nations of the world.
In the references in Zechariah and 2 Samuel God was not condoning these actions, simply judging their disobedience and prophesying that they would happen in the future. A)in Zech. bcz of Israel's idolatry and turning from God, B)bcz of King David's adultery with Bathsheba and killing her husband Uriah.
The Exodus and 2 Deuteronomy references-slavery and war are still apart of life today. In each of those sections there are protections for the women.
1 Samuel 16:7..."For the Lord sees not as man sees; man looks onthe outward appearance, but the Lord looks on the heart." When Samuel anointed David as king, years before he became king. God's ways are not our ways. God looks on the heart.
My brother works in the IT dept. and has worked with Asian Indians and in India. Currently in parts of their patriarchal society, a 50 year old man will have his father talk with an employer to see if he wants his son to take that position. The OT was a patriarchal system. The eldest son inherited the bigger share and had a much bigger responsibility. In Eastern cultures today, many men hate the thought of their parent's death bcz of the coming burden of great responsibility. In the book of Ruth, who was a widow,her kinsman redeemer had the right and responsibilty to marry his brothers (or closest of kin's) widow. That man rejected this claim and Boaz, the next in line married her.
My brother mentioned to me that when God exacted capital punishment, it was because the offender had "lost his heart." The teen who sassed, the woman who had sex out of wedlock were showing disobedient independence and disrespect to their father, whose responsibilty they were. This is a hard concept antithetical to our time, but necessary for order for the culture that would produce the Messiah.
Christ's coming, death and resurrection fulfilled the Law and brought on the direct counsel and internal guidance of the Holy Spirit. This ia a big transition from the external Law's dominance of the OT.
Diamond Dave should teach a course of bovine scatology. In regard to women, God could have easily declared "Men and women are equal in the eyes of God. Any man who treats a woman any less than he would treat Me will forever burn in the fires of Hell. I'm talking to you, Abraham. I'm talking to you, Moses. I'm talking to all men anywhere, anytime. Do you dumbf***s understand what I'm saying?" This statement, or something similar, should not have been one of the commandments. But no, God seemed more concerned with swearing, golden cows, coveting your neighbors property. God isn't too bright.
And, this mumbo jumbo about defending God's routine and numerous executions of women and children because God could see the offenders had lost their hearts? Who are we, just mortal human beings, to criticize God's mass murders of old people, of women, of babies, because only God can see into their hearts? I truly feel sorry for people that believe in, perhaps love, such a God. The God of the old testament is a sadist. He is cruel to the weak and the helpless and rewards the strong with power and on occasion, virgins. When the bible-beaters find a convenient little verse to justify God's murders, God's cruelty, then everything is right as rain. God could see that the sassy boy had lost his heart. He deserved to die. Let's rejoice for God has slaughtered another innocent.
Corrections to above post...
Should have said "...teach a course in bovine scatology".
Meant to say "should have been one of the commandments...
Man's search for God usually results in Man striving to reach towards God through our good works. A Muslim can not know he will go to paradise unless he dies in a holy war. Otherwise, their good works must outweigh their sins.
In contrast, Jesus Christ paid the price for sin through His suffering and sacrificial death on the cross.
John 3:16-17 For this is the way God loved the world: He gave his one and only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life. 3:17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world should be saved through him.
Have a Good Friday!
OK. Thanks for the Happy Easter stuff.
Basically, I'm being told that we have this god, who sits around for an eternally long number of years, doing who knows what, then one day he goes, "I think I'll make a bunch of people this week."
Then he is such a sicko that he makes these people, knowing that he plans on torturing most of them eternally. They are going to get to live for a few years (the blink of an eye), then he'll get to torture them for trillions and trillions of years. Oh sure, he gives them the chance to come hang out with him, but because he is all-knowing, he already knows that ultimate torture is going to be the result for a large portion of his creations.
Not just killing them, mind you. Torturing them forever and ever. Just because they are misguided as to where they came from. I am vastly morally superior to your god, thank you.
Would you prefer we were automatons with no free will to determine our own course?
You completely miss the point. It has absolutely nothing to do with free will. All religious fundamentalists miss this point.
Quit looking at it from your viewpoint. Of course it's nice that we have our own free will. No one would give that up. Now look at it from your god's point of view. He supposedly already knows that he will spend all eternity torturing folks. He already knows who they'll be. SO WHY MAKE THOSE GUYS?? Why not just create the people that will go to heaven?
Why would you deliberately create people to torture? He could make people with their own free will who would worship him. Unless you are arguing that god has no control over one's fate, and is in fact not all-knowing.
Your god deliberately created people knowing they would be eternally tortured. That is the most inexcusable, sadistic, evil, immoral concept I can imagine.
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